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Milling with Infinite Cutlery on a Silent Stack

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Date Posted: Fri Oct/05/12 at 4:51 pm

Cho_Kai
Posts: 8
Joined: 05-Oct-12

I like to come up with complicated ways to win with MTG... this one entertains me.

With Hivemind in play...

Play Silence (or any instant/sorcery... or wait on your opponent to play one... this is not technially a combo piece)

In response, play Fork... let copies propogate

In response, play Fork... let copies propogate.

Whenever your 2nd Fork would resolve, target your 1st Fork, letting that propogate.  Recurse this behavior, generating infinite numbers of Forks.

Play Swift Silence... let copies propogate.  Opponent controlled copies resolve first.  As the copy of swift silence given to your opponent resolves, they draw their library and lose the game.

So, you make your opponents suicidally destroy their own library using only Swift Silence and Forks.


[Edited by Cho_Kai on 5/Oct/12 at 4:53PM]
Date Posted: Fri Oct/05/12 at 11:15pm

Invertedspank
Posts: 95
Joined: 03-Sep-10

Unfortunately, this doesn't work. At least I don't believe. Your first fork would have to target silence, and your second fork would target the first fork, which is already a copy of silence, which make the 2nd fork a silence, not a fork.

Something like that, right?

[Edited by Invertedspank on 5/Oct/12 at 11:16PM]
Date Posted: Fri Oct/05/12 at 11:20pm

gericault5
Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

.Ok im drunk so bare with me on this, but it is not infinate. Assuming a 3 person game. First cast spell 1. Everyone makes a copy. Cast one fork. Ok everyone. Makes a copy cast a second fork ok everyone makes a copy. Opponents copy resolves 1st they copy first spell ok. Your turn your 2nd fork resolves and is removed from the stack leaving a copy of the first fork, no copies are made for opponent since nothing is cast.
The key part to remember is nothing is copied since it is not cast, and as fork makes a copy it is also removed from the stack. So at most when you cast silence all you have on the stack is 1st spell, 1st opponents copy, 2nd opponents copy, 1st fork, 1st opponents copy, 2nd opponents copy, 2nd fork, 1st opponents, 2nd opponents. 9 cards max for 3 players.
And it only affects the 1st opponents after silence resolves everything is countered when the 2nd resolves there is nothing to counter
Date Posted: Fri Oct/05/12 at 11:22pm

gericault5
Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

Inverted-fork is still fork until it resolves, at which time it creates a copy. It never becomes the copy

[Edited by gericault5 on 5/Oct/12 at 11:24PM]
Date Posted: Sat Oct/06/12 at 1:49pm

knarf_the_dwarf
Posts: 1370
Joined: 30-Nov-11

OK, two ways to make this great idea with Hive Mind work with replacements of silence and forks:

1. use Djinn Illuminatus and Pact of the Titan or Pact of Negation. CAST infinite pacts for the replicate costs. Next turn your opp lose due to not being able to pay the Pacts cost again.This works even without Swift silence.

2. Inspired by PinkiePie: meh
Reset and Reiterate: Cast multiple (infinite) Reiterates copying Reset during opps. turn after he draws first card in draw step. Cast Swift Silence. Opp. loses at the end of draw step due to state based action

Rule 104.3c If a player is required to draw more cards than are left in his or her library, he or she draws the remaining cards, and then loses the game the next time a player would receive priority. (This is a state-based action. See rule 704.)


[Edited by knarf_the_dwarf on 6/Oct/12 at 2:44PM]

Date Posted: Sun Oct/07/12 at 2:16am

Kethiju
Posts: 225
Joined: 24-Jul-12

This doesn't work on your turn. Period. As the active player, you have priority before other players. All of your copies will resolve first, thus making you draw your library to nothing and lose the game when you can't draw anymore. This will only work if you aren't the active player and last in the priority list. Meaning, you would have to do nothing on your turn, pass to your left, and then have them play something, or you can fire off your spells, but that could be problematic if no one chooses to fork their own swift silence. They could just fork yours. This is pressuming that your opponants have no idea what is really going on. Let me explain this in depth. On your turn, you cast silence. Hive mind triggers, giving everyone else a copy. Since you are the active player, you get to respond first. So, assume you are targeted by a silence. You respond by casting swift silence. Everyone else gets one, and they go on the stack. You pass priority to the player on your left. They can respond with whatever they want, or pass priority. So forth and so forth until you are given priority again. At which point you could fork the swift silence or whatever was cast in response. Everyone else gets a fork now, targeting whatever the hell they want. Pass priority to your left again and wait to get it back. Fork again, rinse and repeat. It's a conveluted way to drain your own library. If you wanted to do that, just sadistic sacrament yourself for 15 lands and mind funeral yourself. Would be a lot faster and less confussing.
Date Posted: Sun Oct/07/12 at 3:55am

knarf_the_dwarf
Posts: 1370
Joined: 30-Nov-11

I disagree, swift silence and hive mind works regardless which turn it is. If you have priority (even if you not the active player) you cast swift silence and put the effect of drawing cards on the stack. then the opp. next in turn order / priority list puts his copy of swift silence on the stack; then in multiplayer game the next opp. puts his copy of swift silence on the stack. If all players pass, then the stack is processed last in first out. That means that the player who put the last swift silence copy on the stack will counter all other spells and draw that many cards and loses instantly no matter if it was his or your turn.

the only problem is to generate more spells on the stack than the number of cards in opps library.

Please refer to the rules:
10/1/2009: If a player casts an instant or sorcery spell, Hive Mind's ability triggers and is put on the stack on top of that spell. Hive Mind's ability will resolve first. When it does, it creates a number of copies of that spell equal to the number of players in the game minus one. First the player whose turn it is (or, if that's the player who cast the original spell, the player to that player's left) puts his or her copy on the stack, choosing new targets for it if he or she likes. Then each other player in turn order does the same. The last copy put on the stack will be the first one that resolves. (Note that the very last thing to happen is that the original spell resolves.)
--> This means
a) in a duell your opp loses 
b) in multiplayer game the opponent who is sitting next to the active player in opposite direction to turn order loses.
c) the caster of the spell will not lose.


[Edited by knarf_the_dwarf on 7/Oct/12 at 4:06AM]
Date Posted: Sun Oct/07/12 at 5:10am

Kethiju
Posts: 225
Joined: 24-Jul-12

Enter the Tap ability. Enter Split Second. Hive Mind will still trigger from a split second spell, but none of the copies will go on the stack.

From the Comprehensive Rules:

  • 702.59. Split second
    • 702.59a Split second is a static ability that functions only while the spell with split second is on the stack. "Split second" means "As long as this spell is on the stack, players can’t cast other spells or activate abilities that aren’t mana abilities."
    • 702.59b Players may activate mana abilities and take special actions while a spell with split second is on the stack. Triggered abilities trigger and are put on the stack as normal while a spell with split second is on the stack.
    • 702.59c Multiple instances of Split second on the same spell are redundant.
Rulings

  • Players still get priority while a card with split second is on the stack.
  • Split second doesn't prevent players from playing mana abilities.
  • Split second doesn't prevent triggered abilities from triggering. If one does, its controller puts it on the stack and, if applicable, chooses targets for it. Those abilities will resolve as normal.
  • Split second doesn't prevent players from performing special actions. Most notably, players may turn face-down creatures face up while a spell with split second is on the stack. For example, if Sudden Death is targetting a creature you control, you may flip up a Willbender to change the target of Sudden Death to another creature.
  • Split second won't affect spells and abilities that are already on the stack.
  • If the resolution of a triggered ability involves casting a spell, that part of the effect won't work if a spell with split second is on the stack.
These rulings are direct from Wizards. Hive Mind triggers, but no copies are put on the stack since they are "cast me" enabled. Since you can't cast any spell in response to a split second with the exception of mana abilities, the copies never happen.
Date Posted: Sun Oct/07/12 at 9:17am

gericault5
Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09


@kethiju- think about it, hivemind triggers when a spell is "cast", if the copies were "cast" hivemind would create an infinite loop and draw the game. Copies are put on the stack they are never cast unless specified such as the case of ischron scepter. Split second doesnt stop hivemind since nothing was cast

@knarf- while both your ideas work 1 small technicality. Like hivemind copies Replicate copies are not cast so you might have infiniate pacts your opponets only have 1
Date Posted: Wed Oct/10/12 at 12:12am

Kethiju
Posts: 225
Joined: 24-Jul-12

Can't stop Hive Mind's trigger ability, but the copies are stopped because they are "cast me" implied. Because they are "cast me" implied, the split second will stop them. Unless they are mana sources.
Date Posted: Wed Oct/10/12 at 7:23am

gericault5
Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

What the hell is "cast me" implied? Magic is a game of is or isn't, there are no implications of that sort.
Split second only stops spells from being cast. Hive mind does not say the copy is cast, so its not cast. Plain and simple. Any further debate about this can be directed to gatherer, specifically the rules under hivemind

[Edited by gericault5 on 10/Oct/12 at 7:24AM]