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little help here please

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Dragon FangsEnlarge

Dragon Fangs

{1}{G}

Enchantment — Aura

Scourge

Read rules for Dragon Fangs
Enchant creature Enchanted creature gets +1/+1 and has trample. When a creature with mana value 6 or greater enters, you may return this card from your graveyard to the battlefield attached to that creature.

Full card details & printings ›

Date Posted: Tue Feb/03/15 at 8:01 pm

Goomania
Posts: 62
Joined: 29-Jul-12

I was planning on including this in an edh deck when a disagreement regarding the rules came up. Any feedback would be appreciated. Dragon fangs is standing in for Yasova Dragonclaw. My thought is to gain control of an opponents creature with yasova (to be returned at end of turn). Prior to returning, exile the creature with the closet... When it comes back in it is a new creature no longer marked with the return to opponent requirement. (thus keeping control of the creature)...The argument is that in this case it is the same creature because the closet says "return that creature". If it were a new creature the closet couldn't target it? Any of you smart fella's want to take a stab at this your input would be appreciated.
Date Posted: Tue Feb/03/15 at 10:13pm

terakhan
Posts: 636
Joined: 24-Mar-13

The 'new creature' thing only applies on the battlefield. If the rules didn't handle cards 'remembering' what they exiled, cards with imprint wouldn't work, nor cards like Banisher Priest.
Date Posted: Tue Feb/03/15 at 10:45pm

gericault5
Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

The relevant rule is number 400.7

400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence. There are seven exceptions to this rule:

The exceptions to this rule are numbers 400.7a-g, but none of them apply to this combo. It'll work just as you want it to.
Date Posted: Wed Feb/04/15 at 2:39am

knarf_the_dwarf
Posts: 1370
Joined: 30-Nov-11

here's the pic
Date Posted: Wed Feb/04/15 at 2:45am

knarf_the_dwarf
Posts: 1370
Joined: 30-Nov-11

no, pic here, couldn't edit


same mechanism as here http://www.mtgcombos.com/view.php?fid=2&tid=62356
Date Posted: Wed Feb/04/15 at 4:58am

Goomania
Posts: 62
Joined: 29-Jul-12

thank you all. However Gericault what do you think about 400.7a...wouldn't the activated ability of yasova "change the characteristics" of the opponents creature. I don't like the word "characteristics" here but it seems to be the intent of this rule. Again thanks to all and I'm not trying to throw this back at you...I just want to understand.
Date Posted: Wed Feb/04/15 at 8:40am

gericault5
Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

Here is rule 400.7a





400.7a Effects from spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities that change the characteristics of a permanent spell on the stack continue to apply to the permanent that spell becomes.





The reason this does not apply is because of the phrase "on the stack". At no point in the process does the creature in question go on the stack.


This rule is for cards like artifical evolution or eight and half tails, which would cause the permanent to resolve with the new characteristics (new creature type or white respectively)





[Edited by gericault5 on 4/Feb/15 at 8:42AM]
Date Posted: Wed Feb/04/15 at 8:57am

knarf_the_dwarf
Posts: 1370
Joined: 30-Nov-11

400.7a Example

I have Eight-and-a-Half-Tails, my Opponent casts a Juggernaut, while Juggernaut is on the (zone) stack I activate the second ability of Eight-and-a-Half-Tails targeting the Juggernaut-spell in the stack-zone.

all Players pass,

Eight-and-a-Half-Tails effect resolves granting the characteristic "White until eot" to the Juggernaut-spell in stack-zone; Juggernaut resolves entering the Zone battlefield as a White creature which becomes colorless at eot.

This is an exception from the rule 400.7 where the characteristics does not fall off the object while changing zones.



Your Situation is that yasova "change the characteristics" of the opponents creature to have a different controller and that at eot the control changes back to the previous controller.

-- technically this is a delayed triggered ability. see rules 603.7 ff --

This effect is applied without changing zones by the object (the creature stays in the battlefield Zone).

Now the closet throws the creature in the exile Zone which cuts of all previous effects put on that creature (the eot does not Trigger the returning since the delayed triggered ability has gone); in addition the closet establishs a new effect which will the creature return to the battlefield und controll of the last Controller (NOT OWNER).

Therefore this Combo works pretty well.





Was that the answer to your question?

Ups, it took a while for editing, gericault and me share the thoughts on Eight-and-a-Half-Tails!-)

[Edited by knarf_the_dwarf on 4/Feb/15 at 8:59AM]
Date Posted: Wed Feb/04/15 at 7:55pm

Goomania
Posts: 62
Joined: 29-Jul-12

Thanks a lot guys. I am well equipped to defend this combo during a game. just fyi I am looking at cold storage, safe haven and others for this deck.
Date Posted: Thu Feb/05/15 at 11:59am

me
Posts: 19
Joined: 01-Dec-12

I have done this and it works just fine at a tournament