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Theros: Celestial Archon (Bestow)

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Date Posted: Mon Sep/16/13 at 5:01 am

knarf_the_dwarf
Posts: 1370
Joined: 30-Nov-11

\"Bestow cards cast as Auras will resolve as creatures if their targets become illegal. May not be obvious, but true/awesome.\" Also see here http://mtg-realm.tumblr.com/post/59496746720/magic-the-gathering-theros-bestow-some

Based on this, bestow might be good if you create a lock where creature spells aren\'t allowed to be cast, like the Angel/Storm lock. The Smuggler is there for making the target of the Bestow Aura illegal:
Date Posted: Mon Sep/16/13 at 8:11am

gericault5
Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

not likely.  They might be cast as auras, however, that does not change the type line of "enchantment creature".  Since they have both types they are subject to the restrictions of both types
Date Posted: Mon Sep/16/13 at 9:23am

terakhan
Posts: 636
Joined: 24-Mar-13

quoted from the page describing the Theros mechanics:

If you cast a bestow card for its bestow cost, it's never a creature spell. Instead, it's an Aura spell with enchant creature, so you have to target a creature to cast it. If that creature has a heroic ability, this will trigger it, just as any other Aura spell would.

If its never a creature spell, Aether Storm won't stop it.


[Edited by terakhan on 16/Sep/13 at 9:26AM]
Date Posted: Wed Sep/18/13 at 7:10pm

Boyachi
Posts: 1553
Joined: 02-Nov-11

Well in that case, good find! I disagree with how they are making the mechanics work, but they DO have the final say.
Date Posted: Mon Sep/23/13 at 7:57pm

wonkifier
Posts: 3
Joined: 23-Sep-13

Actually, you can't cast it.

The trick is where it says "If you cast a bestow card for its bestow cost". That means once it's actually cast, it's never not a creature.

But until you get all the way through the steps of casting a spell, it's not cast.

The first step is to announce it and put it on the stack, at which point it's an enchantment creature.

Second you announce your intent to pay the bestow cost. Then bestow's ability kicks in and changes the type to "Enchantment - Aura", but until then it actually is an "Enchantment Creature" spell.

And you're not allowed to start casting a spell you can't finish casting... So Aether Storm prevents Bestow.
Date Posted: Mon Sep/23/13 at 10:06pm

terakhan
Posts: 636
Joined: 24-Mar-13

Bestow's reminder text kills that argument, really, without Aether Storm ever having to be involved. Specifically, it never mentions choosing a target. Since you don't target creature spells, and Bestow doesn't add one in its rules text, it would be on the stack as a target-less aura, and just fall to the field as a creature.

HOWEVER, if you follow the rules as they are intended, and declare that you are casting it as an aura, it is, as I posted, NOT a creature spell at that point, but an aura needing a target, and gets through the storm untouched.
Date Posted: Mon Sep/23/13 at 11:30pm

gericault5
Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

Actually Wonk is right.  As I mentioned above it is a creature spell when you start the casting process a subject to the restrictions of such.  Here are the associated rules.

 

casting a spell follows the rules listed in 601.2a-h.  The steps need to be followed in order for a spell to occur per rule 601.1

the first part is 601.2a declaring your intend to cast a spell.  At this point the bestow card is a creature enchantment, this is also the part that aether storm prevents you from doing since it is a creature.

Part 2, 601.2b is when you declare if your paying the normal or alternate costs.  bestow is an alternate cost, so chosing bestow will make it an aura at this point.

Since aether storm prevents part 1 from happening, part 2 never has an opportunity to occur.  incidentially targets are choose in 601.2c

 


[Edited by gericault5 on 23/Sep/13 at 11:34PM]
Date Posted: Tue Sep/24/13 at 1:11am

Draco_lich
Posts: 1073
Joined: 07-May-10

though i would love it if this combo would work as knarf intended... but it doesn't, i have to agree with gericault5, as it is both a creature spell and a enchantment spell while it is being cast, until it is successfully on the battlefield attached to a creature as a aura, at that point it is no longer a creature but is simply a aura enchantment until it no longer has a legal target to enchant, then it becomes a creature, the aether storm would affect the casting, preventing it from being cast (unfortunately) for as long as the aether storm is on the battlefield

[Edited by Draco_lich on 24/Sep/13 at 1:12AM]
Date Posted: Tue Sep/24/13 at 1:14am

wonkifier
Posts: 3
Joined: 23-Sep-13

Bestow's reminder text kills that argument
Keep in mind what the Comp Rules say about Reminder Text (in the glossary): "Parenthetical text in italics in the text box of a card that summarizes a rule that applies to that card, but is not actually rules text and has no effect on play."

However in this case it doesn't matter.  The text does say "it's an aura spell with enchant creature".  Rule 114.1b says "Aura spells are always targeted", so that is covered anyway.

Gericault5 covered most of the rest.  The only addition I'd make is rule 601.5:  "A player can't begin to cast a spell that's prohibited from being cast."

Since AEther Storm stops you from casting creatures, you can't start casting this spell since it goes onto the stack as a creature spell initially, even though it loses the creature portion later in the casting process.


[Edited by wonkifier on 24/Sep/13 at 1:15AM]
Date Posted: Tue Sep/24/13 at 3:12am

knarf_the_dwarf
Posts: 1370
Joined: 30-Nov-11

Hmmmh, the discussion is really interesting at a high level of expertise, which is valuable for our community to get some deeper insight in the details of rulings.
The rules are often confusing when stepping deeper into the details. Especially the layer system is sometimes not easy to apply ...
I found an interesting article related to latest changes of comprehensive rules: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/266b&page=3
Especially the new §702.102 defining "Bestow" is of interest to me/us.
http://community.wizards.com/forum/faqs-and-reference/threads/3928346
TL/DR: My combo doesn't work.

The official rules for bestow are as follows:

702.102. Bestow

702.102a Bestow represents two static abilities, one that functions while the card with bestow is on the stack and another that functions both while it’s on stack and while it’s on the battlefield. “Bestow [cost]” means “You may cast this card by paying [cost] rather than its mana cost.” and “If you chose to pay this spell’s bestow cost, it becomes an Aura enchantment and gains enchant creature. These effects last until one of two things happens: this spell has an illegal target as it resolves and or the permanent this spell becomes, becomes unattached.” Paying a card’s bestow cost follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g.

702.102b If a spell’s controller chooses to pay its bestow cost, that player chooses a legal target for that Aura spell as defined by its enchant creature ability and rule 601.2c. See also rule 303.4.

702.102c A spell’s controller can’t choose to pay its bestow cost unless that player can choose a legal target for that spell after it becomes an Aura spell.

702.102d As an Aura spell with bestow begins resolving, if its target is illegal, the effect making it an Aura spell ends. It continues resolving as a creature spell and will be put onto the battlefield under the control of the spell’s controller. This is an exception to rule 608.3a.

* You don’t choose whether the spell is going to be an Aura spell or not until the spell is already on the stack. Abilities that affect when you can cast a spell, such as flash, will apply to the creature card in whatever zone you’re casting it from. For example, an effect that said you can cast creature spells as though they have flash will allow you to cast a creature card with bestow as an Aura spell anytime you could cast an instant.

* On the stack, a spell with bestow is either a creature spell or an Aura spell. It’s never both.

* Unlike other Aura spells, an Aura spell with bestow isn’t countered if its target is illegal as it begins to resolve. Rather, the effect making it an Aura spell ends, it loses enchant creature, it returns to being an enchantment creature spell, and it resolves and enters the battlefield as an enchantment creature.

* Unlike other Auras, an Aura with bestow isn’t put into its owner’s graveyard if it becomes unattached. Rather, the effect making it an Aura ends, it loses enchant creature, and it remains on the battlefield as an enchantment creature. It can attack (and its {T} abilities can be activated, if it has any) on the turn it becomes unattached if it’s been under your control continuously, even as an Aura, since your most recent turn began.

* If a permanent with bestow enters the battlefield by any method other than being cast, it will be an enchantment creature. You can’t choose to pay the bestow cost and have it become an Aura.

* Auras attached to a creature don’t become tapped when the creature becomes tapped. Except in some rare cases, an Aura with bestow remains untapped when it becomes unattached and becomes a creature.


[Edited by knarf_the_dwarf on 24/Sep/13 at 3:21AM]
Date Posted: Tue Sep/24/13 at 9:44am

terakhan
Posts: 636
Joined: 24-Mar-13

Of the paragraph you bolded, it was the part that was NOT bolded that mattered the most to this. That makes it official, I think. If you don't even choose whether it will be an aura until it's stacked, that kills it for Aether Storm. You can't even get it onto the stack to make the decision.

That's what I get for using the old rules book, I guess.
Date Posted: Thu Sep/26/13 at 8:05am

Try4se
Posts: 2
Joined: 26-Sep-13

You can't cast it as bestow unless you have a creature on the field already
Date Posted: Thu Sep/26/13 at 11:02am

terakhan
Posts: 636
Joined: 24-Mar-13

With the rules portions posted above, it turns out in this situation you can't cast it at all, other creatures out or not.

Update: I stumbled across Ask A Magic Judge Chat, and asked about this combo. They confirmed the original interpretation, that the bestow was only ever an aura on the stack if that cost was chose, was the correct one.


[Edited by terakhan on 26/Sep/13 at 11:18AM]
Date Posted: Thu Sep/26/13 at 4:17pm

wonkifier
Posts: 3
Joined: 23-Sep-13

There's some fairly subtle rules magic that happens in there.  The exact context of the question and answer will change how it appears pretty radically.

Keep in mind that the FAQ was written more in terms of standard interactions for pre-release, so a subtle distinction like this can be easily overlooked or misinterpreted.

Similarly, the people who answer on Ask a Judge are humans as well, so some are wrong sometimes. (then again, so can I.  I did run this by an L2 though)

Rule 601.2 tells us how to spells are cast.  With 601.2a being the first step.

When you begin to cast the spell, it's an "Enchantment Creature".  (601.2a The player announces that he or she is casting the spell. That card...moves from where it is to the stack. It becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has all the characteristics of the card ...associated with it...)

At this point in the process, it's an "Enchantment Creature".

Then, while it's on the stack, you get to choose your intent to pay alternate costs.  (601.2b ...If the spell has alternative or additional costs that will be paid as it's being cast ... the player announces his or her intentions to pay any or all of those costs)

When you choose to to pay the Bestow cost, Bestow's second static ability kicks in.  (702.102a... If you chose to pay this spell’s bestow cost, it becomes an Aura enchantment and gains enchant creature.)

This changes the types of the spell while it's on the stack.  Only now does it become "Enchantment - Aura", and stop being a creature.

And 601.5 says "A player can't begin to cast a spell that's prohibited from being cast.".

So, since it starts off as a creature spell, and you are prohibited from casting creature spells, you don't even get to start the process, so you never get to the part that makes it non-creature.



[Edited by wonkifier on 26/Sep/13 at 4:18PM]


EDIT: The "It's never a creature spell" is more in the scope of "there is no point where you could respond where it's a creature spell".  Because there is no priority between the start and end of casting a spell.


[Edited by wonkifier on 26/Sep/13 at 4:28PM]