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Combo Name: Soulbond ftw Submitted By: knarf_the_dwarf
Card Name
Type
Cost
P/T
Editions (ordered by release)

Reins of Power
 Instant 2UU Stronghold, Rare

Phage the Untouchable
 Creature - Minion Legend 3BBBB 4/4 Legions, Rare

Deadeye Navigator
 Creature - Spirit 4UU 5/5 Avacyn Restored, Rare
Estimated Combo Cost: $5.24
Date Posted: Tue Dec/11/12 at 7:46 am

knarf_the_dwarf
Posts: 1370
Joined: 30-Nov-11

Have Phage and Deadeye soulbounded in play. Activate Phage's soulbond ability and cast Reins of Power stacking on top.
Phage will lease battlefield and re-enter battlefield under opponents control, you win.
Date Posted: Tue Dec/11/12 at 1:10pm

TheCaptain
Posts: 909
Joined: 13-Apr-11

You know, I'm actually thinking this doesn't work. Phage will use her soulbond ability, which reads "return to battlefield under your control". Even though you respond by giivng her away, the "your" still responds to the person who triggered that ability, not the person who currently controls the source. So, she should still enter the battlefield under your own control, and you'll lose.
Date Posted: Tue Dec/11/12 at 4:01pm

Akinas86
Posts: 327
Joined: 16-Jun-10

gonna have to agree. once you have exiled phage, even if from an ability, its not under anyones control, therefore you cannot give it away.
Date Posted: Tue Dec/11/12 at 7:12pm

knarf_the_dwarf
Posts: 1370
Joined: 30-Nov-11

I agree due to

109.5. The words “you” and “your” on an object refer to the object’s controller, its would-be controller (if a player is attempting to play, cast, or activate it), or its owner (if it has no controller). For a static ability, this is the current controller of the object it’s on. For an activated ability, this is the player who activated the ability. For a triggered ability, this is the controller of the object when the ability triggered, unless it’s a delayed triggered ability. To determine the controller of a delayed triggered ability, see rules 603.7d–f.

112.8. The controller of an activated ability on the stack is the player who activated it. The controller of a triggered ability on the stack (other than a delayed triggered ability) is the player who controlled the ability’s source when it triggered, or, if it had no controller, the player who owned the ability’s source when it triggered. To determine the controller of a delayed triggered ability, see rules 603.7d–f.

I still think that it works.


608.2c The controller of the spell or ability follows its instructions in the order written. However, replacement effects may modify these actions. In some cases, later text on the card may modify the meaning of earlier text (for example, “Destroy target creature. It can’t be regenerated” or “Counter target spell. If that spell is countered this way, put it on top of its owner’s library instead of into its owner’s graveyard.”) Don’t just apply effects step by step without thinking in these cases—read the whole text and apply the rules of English to the text.

I think that first you change control of creatures by reigns of power and then apply the flickering effect with returning to your (opps) battlefield.

I state that I generate a continous effect:

611.1. A continuous effect modifies characteristics of objects, modifies control of objects, or affects players or the rules of the game, for a fixed or indefinite period.
611.2. A continuous effect may be generated by the resolution of a spell or ability.
611.2c If a continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability modifies the characteristics or changes the controller of any objects, the set of objects it affects is determined when that continuous effect begins. After that point, the set won’t change. (Note that this works differently than a continuous effect from a static ability.) A continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability that doesn’t modify the characteristics or change the controller of any objects modifies the rules of the game, so it can affect objects that weren’t affected when that continuous effect began.

614.14. An object may have one ability printed on it that generates a replacement effect which causes one or more cards to be exiled, and another ability that refers either to “the exiled cards” or to cards “exiled with [this object].” These abilities are linked: the second refers only to cards in the exile zone that were put there as a direct result of the replacement event caused by the first. If another object gains a pair of linked abilities, the abilities will be similarly linked on that object. They can’t be linked to any other ability, regardless of what other abilities the object may currently have or may have had in the past. See rule 607, “Linked Abilities.”

In other words: Why does Phage/Endless Whispers works and this combo not? Who is the controller with respect to rule 109.5 and endless whisper?

Date Posted: Tue Dec/11/12 at 9:16pm

gericault5
Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

you can't really compare this to endless whisper.  when the whisper is on the field and phage dies, whispers ability triggers they ability then tells you as the controller of the ability to chose an opponent and then the ability puts it back into play under your opponents control.  whoever controls whisper is illrelevent
also trying to say they are linked won't work either as Phage is not exiled by another card but by its own ability and the same ability is what causes it to go in and out of play.  its not tied to anything else.  also you can't say they are linked because the soulbound is broken when control changes since you no longer control both creatures (actually its also breaks when phage leaves play, and the trigger occurs again when it reenters play)
the blink is an activated ability due to the way it is written cost:effect.  if its activated it can't be a continuous effect. (Edit: though a continous effect is created when soubound resolves and they are paired, in the sense deadeye will keep giving phage the ability, until they are unpaired)
I think that first you change control of creatures by reigns of power and then apply the flickering effect with returning to your (opps) battlefield.
you can't activate the flickering effect while its under an opponents control, so you need to activate it before the reins is cast (which I do realize you know) but as you stated in 112.8 you are the controller of the ability since you activated it.  But you are forgetting 112.7 once activated an ability is independent of its source.  where the source moves doesn't matter you will always be the controller


[Edited by gericault5 on 12/Dec/12 at 1:52PM]
Date Posted: Thu Dec/13/12 at 8:50am

knarf_the_dwarf
Posts: 1370
Joined: 30-Nov-11

for clarification: Deadeye and Phage are under my control and paired to each other.
1. I activate Phage's flicker ability granted by the pairing with deadeye. Flicker on stack.
2. I respond to that with casting Reigns of Power. RoP change control effect on the stack.
3. I Pass, pass, Priority in APNAP...
4. RoP change control effect resolves. Control of Deadeye and Phage changes to opponent. Pairing of Deadeye/Phage ends, they are not longer paired due to rulings of soulbond. A continuous effect is generated which changes the control of the creatures until eot.
5. Priority APNAP...
6. Flicker starts resolving. Phage goes to exile and comes back under whoes control? My control as I've been the activator and controller of that ability or under the opponent's control as he was the last valid instance and information of the game for "your" (controller) when Phage left the battlefield?

My understanding is that on resolution the game checks for the last information on these issues and that Phage enters on opponents side of the battlefield, or do you have better arguments? I would appreciate if argumenting is based on the official rules.
Date Posted: Thu Dec/13/12 at 8:19pm

gericault5
Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

If you look at the glossary from the rules you get the following definition for Last Known Information:

Information about an object that’s no longer in the
zone it’s expected to be in, or information about a player that’s no longer in
the game. This information captures that object’s last existence in that zone
or that player’s last existence in the game. See rules 112.7a, 608.2b, 608.2g,
and 800.4g.


Phage is still in the same zone and both players are still in the game.  There is no need to look at LKI.
 
Phage returns to play under your control, due to the following 3 rules which were already posted, with the relevant parts highlight


112.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the
stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after
that time won’t affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to
do something (for example, “Prodigal Pyromancer deals 1 damage to target
creature or player”) rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these
cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the
source because the effect needs to be divided checks that information when the
ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when
it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone it’s
expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source
can still perform the action even though it no longer exists.


112.8. The controller of an activated ability on the stack is
the player who activated it. The controller of a triggered ability on the stack
(other than a delayed triggered ability) is the player who controlled the
ability’s source when it triggered, or, if it had no controller, the player who
owned the ability’s source when it triggered. To determine the controller of a
delayed triggered ability, see rules 603.7d–f.
109.5. The words “you” and “your” on an object
refer to the object’s controller, its would-be controller (if a player is
attempting to play, cast, or activate it), or its owner (if it has no
controller). For a static ability, this is the current controller of the object
it’s on. For an activated ability, this is the player who activated the
ability. For a triggered ability, this is the controller of the object when the
ability triggered, unless it’s a delayed triggered ability. To determine the
controller of a delayed triggered ability, see rules 603.7d–f.



The combination of these three rules basically say "you activated the ability, therefore you are the controller of the ability, the "your" on the ability was set to you as the controller when it was activated, and since it is no longer tied to the source of the ability, it doesn't matter where the source goes
 
ddd
Date Posted: Fri Dec/14/12 at 11:43am

M-alice
Posts: 46
Joined: 06-Apr-12

Jesus fucking christ!

I haven't seen this much text since fanfiction.net

Or those fucking retarded harry potter books.

TL;DR
Date Posted: Fri Dec/14/12 at 1:54pm

Manshoon
Posts: 23
Joined: 17-Mar-12

There shouldn't be an argument. You can get all technical about it with the rules if you want. I'll put it in layman's terms. This combo does not work. Phage would return to the battlefield under your control because you are the one that activated his flicker soulbonded ability. When you put it on the stack, it was your creature. Since the give spell and soulbond are both fast effects, they are both going to resolve. Nothing here is going to fizzle. The player you are giving phage to can't get phage because you flickered him and you are going to get him when he comes back into play. Control of phage can't change in this manner when you've got soulbonded flicker on the stack. That should be simple enough for anyone to understand.



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