Easy Infinite Mana (Is this new?!?!)

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Phyrexian Altar

Artifact

Invasion

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Sacrifice a creature: Add one mana of any color.

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Dross Scorpion

Artifact Creature — Scorpion

Mirrodin

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Whenever this creature or another artifact creature dies, you may untap target artifact.

3/1

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: Choose any number of target creatures. Each of those creatures gains persist until end of turn. (When it dies, if it had no -1/-1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a -1/-1 counter on it.)

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Date Posted: Mon Nov/26/12 at 10:57 am

Jesscrazy

Posts: 70
Joined: 30-Mar-11

I'd be really surprised if I was the first t o think of this. Go ahead and laugh if like 60 other people posted this.

Anyway, people always have to point out to silly people that Cauldron of Souls gives persist, then the creature it gives persist to dies, then once it's back on the battlefield, it's a new creature that doesn't have persist anymore.

I found an easy solution.

1. Tap the Cauldron to give Dross Scorpion persist.

2. Sacrifice it to Phyrexian Altar (because colored mana is superior to colorless mana).

3. Dross Scorpion death trigger will untap Cauldron of Souls, so it's fresh to give Dross Scorpion persist again.

4. Profit.

Date Posted: Mon Nov/26/12 at 11:03am

TheCaptain

Posts: 909
Joined: 13-Apr-11

It has been thought of before actually, but it's still a good combination nonetheless. THe issue with the way you've presented it is that that Dross Scorpian will enter the battefield with a -1/-1 counter after saccing it, so when it returns it will have a toughness of 0 and will go back to the graveyard. You'd need another creature to use as a sacrifice with a toughness of at least 2.

Date Posted: Mon Nov/26/12 at 11:09am

Jesscrazy

Posts: 70
Joined: 30-Mar-11

I also realized that even if i thad a higher toughness, it would still have a -1/-1 counter on it, so persist wouldn't do anything. Poo.

Date Posted: Mon Nov/26/12 at 11:23am

TheCaptain

Posts: 909
Joined: 13-Apr-11

Try adding a creature with undying, thats a good way to cancel out that counter. THere are many other ways of doing it. If you seach for the card "Cauldron of Souls in the upper search area, you'll find many other combos that have their own way of getting around that pesky -1/-1 counter.

Date Posted: Mon Nov/26/12 at 3:20pm

knarf_the_dwarf

Posts: 1370
Joined: 30-Nov-11

- and + counters do not cancel each other out, when a creature with persist and undying dies the controller just stacks both abilities in the order of his choice. The creature returns with the counter corresponding to the topmost ability on the stack. The second effect does nothing since the creature already left graveyard zone.
At the next dying trigger you stack in opposite order and the creature will come back again...

I agree to the captain, searching provides many useful hints for utilizing the counter mechanism. I prefer the black Mikaeus or this green legend which protects from having counters placed on your creatures...

Date Posted: Mon Nov/26/12 at 5:04pm

TheCaptain

Posts: 909
Joined: 13-Apr-11

Knarf, you're a little mistaken about the counters. +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters do in fact cancel out. It's a commonly used trick, I couldn't find the rule off hand, but if anyone needs further convincing I can do a little more scouring for it.

Date Posted: Mon Nov/26/12 at 6:15pm

shakii23

Posts: 5711
Joined: 08-Sep-09

something like triskelion so you can call the combo 3,4,5,6... infinite mana.

Date Posted: Mon Nov/26/12 at 6:58pm

GoodGuyTyler

Posts: 202
Joined: 14-Mar-12

Ya, the +1/+1 counters cancelling out -1/-1 counters is a fairly new rule I believe that came in with Undying. I personally think it's a bad rule and that it shouldn't work, but that's a different story lol.

As for the combo, adding Melira would make it infinite would it not?

Date Posted: Mon Nov/26/12 at 7:06pm

spiderman1100

Posts: 354
Joined: 19-Apr-12

Melira makes many things infinite.

As for undying/persist, all you need to do is stack them so the first time only persist will resolve, then the next time undying resolves, or vice versa. The counters won't cancel out, but the abilities essentially will.

P.S. Try Mikaeus, the Unhallowed

Date Posted: Mon Nov/26/12 at 7:25pm

TheCaptain

Posts: 909
Joined: 13-Apr-11

Spiderman, I assure you the counters most certainly DO cancel out. Here is the ruling:

121.3. If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it as a state-based action, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it. See rule 704.

I'm sorry if I'm trying to preach about the rules so much, but it can be incredibly frustrating to have to explain the rules to people in a tournament or competitive setting, and can sometimes delay games to the point of draws (very annoying if you've ever experienced it). It's easier on everyone to learn these tricky rulings and subtleties now, than have to encounter it for the first time in a tournament.

Date Posted: Tue Nov/27/12 at 4:54am

knarf_the_dwarf

Posts: 1370
Joined: 30-Nov-11

My excuses to everyone for too short explanation and a little bit wrongness in my trigger related statement.
@TheCaptain: Yes, these counters cancel out but only when state based actions are performed. During resolution of a spell or ability it might happen that both counters are present on a creature (see 704.7 below).
My fault to state that both triggers occur when one of the counters is on a creature. Only the trigger occurs which counter is not on the creature.
Here is the revised explanation of how creatures with persist and undying return from the graveyard:
All Scenarios have a Phyrexian Altar, Dross Scorpion and the Cauldron of Souls to provide the infinite sac engine with persist providing mechanism. Also Mycosynth Lattice is there to make it work.

Scenario1: I have a Geralf's Messenger in play with undying and toughness 2 and no counters. I tap the CoS to give persist to him and sac him afterwards. Both trigger conditions for undying and persist are met, I put them on the stack in my favourite order. On resulution the Geralf's Messenger returns to the battlefield with the counter corresponding to the ability put on the stack second.

Scenario2: I have a Geralf's Messenger in play with undying and toughness 2 and 1 -1/-1 counter; so he is 2/1. I tap the CoS to give persist to him and sac him afterwards. Only the trigger condition for undying is met, I put it on the stack. On resulution the Geralf's Messenger returns to the battlefield with 1 +1/+1 counter.

Scenario3: I have a Geralf's Messenger in play with undying and toughness 2 and 1 +1/+1 counter. I tap the CoS to give persist to him and sac him afterwards. Only the trigger conditions for persist is met, I put it on the stack. On resulution the Geralf's Messenger returns to the battlefield with 1 -1/-1 counter.

Scenario4: I have a Young Wolf in play with undying and toughness 1 and no counters. I tap the CoS to give persist to him and sac him afterwards. This triggers the Dross Scorpion untap effect and both trigger conditions for undying and persist are met, I put them on the stack in my favourite order (all 3 triggger I controll happen same time at battlefield --> graveyard event). On resulution the Young Wolf returns to the battlefield with the counter corresponding to the ability put on the stack second. If I bring him back with the -1/-1 counter the young wolf will die next time state based effects are applied which itself triggers the undying effect. I think you even do not have priority to sac the wolf at this point. At the end, the wolf returns with a +1/+1 counter, the only difference is that either 1 or 2 etb triggers occured.

Scenario5: I have a Young Wolf in play with undying and toughness 1 and 1 +1/+1 counter. I tap the CoS to give persist to him and sac him afterwards. Only the trigger conditions for persist is met, I put it on the stack. On resulution the Young Wolf returns to the battlefield with 1 -1/-1 counter dying next time state based effects are checked and that will trigger undying again. The wolf will return with 1 +1/+1 counter and provides 2 etb triggers.
Also see example 704.7 below.

Scenario6, creature with graft except Simic Initiate:
I have a Graft creature in play with graft>1 and appropriate +1/+1 counters. I tap the CoS to give persist to him and sac him afterwards. The trigger condition persist is met, I put them on the stack. On resulution the Graft creature returns to the battlefield with the counter corresponding to the graft ability and with the 1 -1/-1 counter from persist. Next time state based effects are checked the counters cancel out. If you do this with Simic Initiate (graft = 1) it will die and never come back since it had + and - counter at the last known game state before any of those state-based actions (like power/toughness calculation) were performed. Even a Mikaeus, the Unhallowed would not help since the Simic Initiate is a Human which means he does not get undying by Mikaeus and if he had undying, the trigger condition for undying would not be met due to the +1/+1 counter.

Scenario6 is valid for Arcbound creatures, Phantom creatures, some Clockwork creatures, for any creature with toughness 0 printed and etb-effect with a certain amount of +1/+1 counters >1 (except kicker or similar). Unleash and persist together is also nice.
Similar scenarios exist when Mikaeus, the Unhallowed is used in combination with persist creatures.

Sources
http://tappedout.net/mtg-questions/persist-and-undying-on-the-same-creature-what-happens/
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=9316756#post9316756
http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Persist
http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Undying

Extracts from rules:

302.4c To determine a creature’s power and toughness, start with the numbers printed in its lower right corner, then apply any applicable continuous effects. (See rule 613, “Interaction of Continuous Effects.”)

613.1g Layer 7: Power- and/or toughness-changing effects are applied.
613.3d Layer 7d: Power and/or toughness changes from counters are applied. See rule 121, “Counters.”

704.4. Unlike triggered abilities, state-based actions pay no attention to what happens during the resolution of a spell or ability.

704.5r If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.

704.7. If a state-based action results in a permanent leaving the battlefield at the same time other state-based actions were performed, that permanent’s last known information is derived from the game state before any of those state-based actions were performed.
Example: You control Young Wolf, a 1/1 creature with undying, and it has a +1/+1 counter on it. A spell puts three -1/-1 counters on Young Wolf. Before state-based actions are performed, Young Wolf has one +1/+1 counter and three -1/-1 counters on it. After state-based actions are performed, Young Wolf is in the graveyard. When it was last on the battlefield, it had a +1/+1 counter on it, so undying will not trigger.

Date Posted: Tue Nov/27/12 at 11:17am

TheCaptain

Posts: 909
Joined: 13-Apr-11

Knarf, You are correct, I misunderstood what ou were trying to say. I've run into too many people who think that a creature can have both -1/-1 and +1/+1 counters on it, when they are removed due to state-based actions.

Essentially a recap - once persist or undying resolves, the other one can't resolve because it can no longer return the creature from the graveyard to play (since the creature is now in play). So if a creature had both undying and persist, you'd essentially "pick" which one resolves should both trigger.