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Me, unlimited tokens, you nada

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Safehold EliteEnlarge

Safehold Elite

{1}{G/W}

Creature — Elf Scout

Shadowmoor

Read rules for Safehold Elite
Persist (When this creature dies, if it had no -1/-1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a -1/-1 counter on it.)

2/2

Full card details & printings ›

Mikaeus, the UnhallowedEnlarge

Mikaeus, the Unhallowed

{3}{B}{B}{B}

Legendary Creature — Zombie Cleric

Dark Ascension

Read rules for Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
Intimidate (This creature can't be blocked except by artifact creatures and/or creatures that share a color with it.) Whenever a Human deals damage to you, destroy it. Other non-Human creatures you control get +1/+1 and have undying. (When a creature with undying dies, if it had no +1/+1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a +1/+1 counter on it.)

5/5

Full card details & printings ›

Date Posted: Sun Aug/26/12 at 9:48 pm

tinkerbell
Posts: 14
Joined: 04-Apr-11

use mikeus to give any persist creature undying so you can sacrifice it to connoisseur or bloodthrone vampire. then the other cards listed will trigger everytime your creature dies.
Date Posted: Sun Aug/26/12 at 11:53pm

Nickosis
Posts: 154
Joined: 31-Mar-12

To keep this one color, just do what most other people do: Haakon, ornithopter/any 0 cost creature, Pawn of Ulamog, Bloodthrone, Gravepact and Ashes of the Fallen saying Knight. Yours isn't bad, just too much stuff going on. Plus being 4 colors...

[Edited by Nickosis on 27/Aug/12 at 7:48AM]
Date Posted: Mon Aug/27/12 at 9:44am

Boyachi
Posts: 1553
Joined: 02-Nov-11

I understand the premise, but next time please pick one avenue and post it, as the list is too much to look at as there are many ways to make combos.
Date Posted: Tue Aug/28/12 at 3:39am

Kethiju
Posts: 225
Joined: 24-Jul-12

My question to you is, what do you do when you run out of summoned creatures? From what I can tell, none of those cards allow for token creation if a token dies. Yes, they have undying, but big deal. You have a major problem with this combo and that problem is sustainability. It's just not there. The black elf enchantment is specific to elves. You will only get 3 uses from the G/W elf. Persist for a -1/-1 counter, then undying for a +1/+1 counter. Then, it's final use, since it will have a -1/-1 and a +1/+1 counter on it. It looks good on paper, but it just doesn't work for long. I hate to be the guy that's being critical of this, but gawd...
Date Posted: Tue Aug/28/12 at 3:52am

Kethiju
Posts: 225
Joined: 24-Jul-12

Check my previous post.
  • All cards printed with undying are creatures. If a creature with undying stops being a creature (for example, an artifact creature with undying becomes a noncreature artifact due to Neurok Transmuter's second ability), undying will still trigger.
  • Likewise, if a noncreature permanent becomes a creature, gains undying, and is put into a graveyard, the undying ability will still trigger even though that permanent won't be a creature when it returns to the battlefield.
  • Multiple instances of undying trigger separately, but are effectively redundant as only the first instance to resolve will have any effect.
  • An object returned to the battlefield with the undying ability is a new object with no memory of its previous existence. It has "summoning sickness".
  • Tokens can gain undying, and the ability will trigger if a token is put into a graveyard. However, like all tokens, it can't return to the battlefield and will cease to exist as a state-based action before the ability would go on the stack.
  • Undying relies on the last known information about the permanent just before it was put into a graveyard. If that permanent had a +1/+1 counter on it, then receives enough -1/-1 counters for it to be put into a graveyard due to having 0 toughness or lethal damage marked on it, it won't return to the battlefield despite the state-based action of +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters "cancelling each other out". As the permanent last existed on the battlefield, it had a +1/+1 counter on it, so undying will not trigger.
    • My bad. Just checked the rulings. Just watch out for your tokens. They WON'T come back with undying. They hit the graveyard and are instantly exiled before undying can trigger.
    Date Posted: Tue Aug/28/12 at 4:22am

    Nickosis
    Posts: 154
    Joined: 31-Mar-12

    Actually Kethiju according to the Official Magic site, http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/177 :If a creature ever has +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters on it, the two kinds of counters immediately "cancel out," one for one, until only one kind of counter remains. For example, a creature with three +1/+1 counters and two -1/-1 counters would end up with one +1/+1 counter. There's a twist, though: If a creature with +1/+1 counters on it gets enough -1/-1 counters to kill it, it dies before the two counters have the chance to cancel out. For example, if your Strangleroot Geist with a +1/+1 counter on it got three -1/-1 counters from Skinrender's "enters the battlefield" ability, the Geist would die with one +1/+1 counter and three -1/-1 counters and wouldn't return to the battlefield.

    Which means when the creature Enters the Battlefield from the Graveyard it gets both counters then both are gone, priority shifts and the game doesn't realize the creature had any counters and hey, it can be sac'd freely again.


    The overall issue is too much stuff going on tor the combo to viable. Now the one I stated stays black and pretty much does the same thing. Add in a Blood Pet and Endrek Sahr for Thrulls to sac to something and Shabang, gameover man! This combo is similar to Merlia and anything with Persist. Similar but not the same. Honestly the combo would be great if not for the white enchantment and relying on Mikaues' expensive color cost.

    [Edited by Nickosis on 28/Aug/12 at 4:24AM]

    [Edited by Nickosis on 28/Aug/12 at 4:37AM]
    Date Posted: Tue Aug/28/12 at 8:22am

    Squillis
    Posts: 424
    Joined: 20-Nov-08

    A small change to what you said.  Persist and Undying are both triggered abilities that trigger on the creature being put into the graveyard from the battlefield.  Because a permanent that has both abilities would create two triggers for the same event the owner of the permanent chooses the order to put those abilities on the stack.  The last one on the stack will resolve first (last in, first out).  When the second one resolves it will try to return the creature from the graveyard but be unable to find it there so will do nothing including not adding a counter.

    In the combo it would work like this (ignoring the triggers that create the token): Persist and Undying trigger, the controller chooses to put the Persist on the stack first and then the Undying.  Undying resolves and returns the creature to the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter.  Persist resolves, attempts to return the creature but doesn't find it in the graveyard so does nothing.  Sacrifice the creature.  Persist triggers and goes on the stack, Undying will Not trigger because the creature died with a +1/+1 counter.  Persist returns the creature to the battlefield with a -1/-1 counter.  Sacrifice the creature.  Undying triggers and goes on the stack, Persist will Not trigger because the creature died with a  -1/-1 counter, etc, etc, etc.

    The combo is functional and will have no interaction with the counters cancelling each other out.
    Date Posted: Wed Aug/29/12 at 10:46pm

    tinkerbell
    Posts: 14
    Joined: 04-Apr-11

    Thank you Squillis, you wre the fist to see the combo the right way. 

    Now for those who care about color

    Mikius, Rendclaw Trow, Bloodflow Connoisseur, Golgari Germination, gravepact

    yes green/black but better than four colors.

    Sac, chose Pesist second on stack, persist, sac, choose undying second on stack, undying

    Let the triggers fly!




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