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Combo Name: demon's mana Submitted By: Starship
Card Name
Type
Cost
P/T
Editions (ordered by release)

Phyrexian Altar
 Artifact 3 Invasion, Rare

Swamp
 Land Urza's Saga, Common

Carnifex Demon
 Creature - Demon 4BB 6/6 Scars of Mirrodin, Rare
Estimated Combo Cost: $8.34
Date Posted: Mon Jun/04/12 at 1:48 pm

Starship
Posts: 549
Joined: 13-Dec-11

swamp is mikaeus, the unhallowed

sac the demon for one of any color. he returns to play with undying and the -1/-1 and +1/+1 counters cancel each other out. repeat for infinite mana.

pretty much any card that allows you to sac for an ability will work in place of phyrexian altar.
Date Posted: Mon Jun/04/12 at 3:09pm

Jesscrazy
Posts: 70
Joined: 30-Mar-11

And any creature that has a -1/-1 counter put on itself (or that you can choose to put on it) when it comes into play will work.  Cultbrand Cinder, Voracious Hatchling, etc.  Grief Tyrant would be epic.
Date Posted: Mon Jun/04/12 at 3:12pm

TheCaptain
Posts: 909
Joined: 13-Apr-11

The things that I really like about Carnifex Demon is that it can clear +1/+1 counters off of your other undying creatures
Date Posted: Tue Jun/05/12 at 9:06am

SirZapdos
Posts: 329
Joined: 21-Jun-11

Same with Black Sun's Zenith. It also wipes out your opponent's creatures. Geralf's Messenger keeps coming back again and again, shocking your opponent each time.
Date Posted: Tue Jun/05/12 at 11:30am

TheCaptain
Posts: 909
Joined: 13-Apr-11

Yup. Although what I heard is (and correct me if I wrong) that -1/-1 and +1/+1 counters only cancel each other out if the creature doesn't die. If a creature would die, that state-based effect happens before the canceling effect happens or something like that. I don't know any specific ruling, that's why I'm not going to say for certainty, but I believe that if you Black Sun for X=5, it kills a Messenger with the counter already on it.
Date Posted: Wed Jun/06/12 at 7:49am

Squillis
Posts: 424
Joined: 20-Nov-08

The reason the creature does die if it gets enough -1/-1 counters is because All state based actions are performed simultaneously.  The removing of the -1/-1 and +1/+1 counters and the creature dying happen at the same time, because of this, there is never a point where the creature is on the battlefield without the +1/+1 counter.  Use the following as an example:

You control Geralf's Messenger with a +1/+1 counter on it and cast Black Sun's Zenith for X=3.  The Zenith resolves and the game looks for any state based actions.  The game goes through and notes that a permanent has both +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters and notices the creature's toughness is 0 or less.  After deciding what it needs to do it pitches that creature to the bin at THE SAME TIME AS REMOVING THE COUNTERS.  We may have difficulty understanding this because we often think linearly, one thing happens after another.  This game doesn't always work in a linear fashion.  The creature hits the graveyard and looks back to see if it met the conditions for Undying to trigger.  It sees that last time it was on the battlefield it had a +1/+1 counter so won't trigger.

As an interesting side example, look at how a Messenger Can come back while having a +1/+1 counter and being killed by a Zenith.  Messenger has a +1/+1 counter making it a 4/3, you also have a Diregraf Captain out boosting the power of the Messenger to 5/4.  You cast Zenith for X=3.  When the Zenith has resolved the game will look at what needs to be done before you get priority.  It will see that the Diregraf Captain's P/T is -1/-1 and the Messenger's P/T is 2/1 (the Captain is still on the Battlefield) and there are both +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on the same permanent.  The game will remove the appropriate number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters and send the Captain to the Graveyard.  The game will then look to see if anything more needs to happen.  It will see the Messenger, now without the +1/+1 counter, has a P/T of 1/0.  Once all other actions are found, it performs them all at once again and the Messenger dies.  Because there was a point BETWEEN when it lost the counter and it died the Undying will see that and trigger.  Also worth noting, in this example the Captain will NOT trigger to have your opponent lose life.  This is because there was a point BETWEEN when the captain died and the Messenger died.  If you Zenith'd for 4 instead you'd get the trigger for the Captain because both would die at the same time, but not for the messenger for the reason that was given in the first example.  You can't have it both ways in this case ;)

Kinda long and drawn out, but a lot of people misunderstand the interaction of these cards and I wanted to give as concise an explanation as I could.



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