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Sun of Oblivion

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Claws of Gix

Claws of Gix

Artifact

Time Spiral Timeshifted

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, Sacrifice a permanent: You gain 1 life.

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Oblivion Ring

Oblivion Ring

Enchantment

Shards of Alara

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When this enchantment enters, exile another target nonland permanent. When this enchantment leaves the battlefield, return the exiled card to the battlefield under its owner's control.

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Sun Titan

Sun Titan

Creature — Giant

Magic 2011

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Vigilance Whenever this creature enters or attacks, you may return target permanent card with mana value 3 or less from your graveyard to the battlefield.

6/6

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Date Posted: Thu Jan/26/12 at 9:43 am

Posts: 10194
Joined: 26-Oct-09

Yeah. . .so Exiling and stuff. . .

Date Posted: Thu Jan/26/12 at 9:55am

Chiefsizzlechest

Posts: 348
Joined: 18-Oct-10

wait what exactly are you doing here?Im trying to figure this out

Date Posted: Thu Jan/26/12 at 9:58am

Memnite Shyamalan

Posts: 81
Joined: 26-Dec-11

More rage posting?

Date Posted: Thu Jan/26/12 at 10:05am

Posts: 10194
Joined: 26-Oct-09

It exiles a card per turn. Stack manipulation with Claws and recursion with the Titan.

Date Posted: Thu Jan/26/12 at 10:12am

Memnite Shyamalan

Posts: 81
Joined: 26-Dec-11

I need more coffee.

Date Posted: Thu Jan/26/12 at 10:19am

Posts: 909
Joined: 13-Apr-11

For anyone who missed what's going on here, here's a breakdown:
-You play O-Ring, which triggers "remove target nonland perm from the game"
-With that trigger on the stack, you sac O-Ring to Claws.
-This triggers O-Rings second ability, "return exiled permanent to play"
-When the "return" trigger resolves, it checks and sees that no permanent has been removed yet, so nothing happens
-Then the "remove" trigger resolves, exiling a nonland permanent permanently.

And then Sun Titan brings it all back for repeatability.

Date Posted: Thu Jan/26/12 at 10:28am

Memnite Shyamalan

Posts: 81
Joined: 26-Dec-11

Brain hurt. Lightning Bolt good.

I think I see what's going on, though. Thanks for the clarification.

Date Posted: Thu Jan/26/12 at 12:54pm

Posts: 157
Joined: 10-Sep-11

The stack is fun! Momir vig and maelstrom wanderer can get some complicated stack shenanigans going!

Date Posted: Thu Jan/26/12 at 2:15pm

Posts: 1081
Joined: 04-Apr-11

This tells me the rules are broken.

Date Posted: Thu Jan/26/12 at 2:22pm

Posts: 157
Joined: 10-Sep-11

The stupidest rule is that when a person dies all of their spell of the stack are exiled!

Comet storm is the best counterspell!

Date Posted: Thu Jan/26/12 at 3:25pm

Posts: 1148
Joined: 24-May-10

Rules have been broken for a long, long, long time...

Date Posted: Thu Jan/26/12 at 3:28pm

Posts: 157
Joined: 10-Sep-11

Banding was super broken...!

Date Posted: Thu Jan/26/12 at 4:44pm

Posts: 10194
Joined: 26-Oct-09

Wizards is trying to unbreak the rules! They even took the stack out of combat!

Date Posted: Thu Jan/26/12 at 5:02pm

Chiefsizzlechest

Posts: 348
Joined: 18-Oct-10

Which I wouldnt play without stack, Ill have to clarify with everyone that Im playing with stack

but ok, so your sacking the O-ring before the exiling resolves? 0.o

Date Posted: Thu Jan/26/12 at 5:05pm

Posts: 10194
Joined: 26-Oct-09

Yep, and it lets you keep the permanent exiled.

You shouldn't have to clarify whether playing with the stack. The stack is part of every game!

Date Posted: Thu Jan/26/12 at 7:40pm

Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

Wizards didn't take the stack out of combat, they took combat damage off the stack.

Wizards wouldn't remove the stack, it is to much part of the game now.

Date Posted: Sun Jan/29/12 at 9:06am

Memnite Shyamalan

Posts: 81
Joined: 26-Dec-11

Man, this is going to be a hard sell. Saying how it works out loud just sounds like I'm twisting the rules to cheat. Don't get me wrong, I believe it works. I play at a paralegal's house for FNM so he's pretty particular about rules. I can already feel how long this turn is going to take, the glow of iPhones researching, the back and forth. Oh Stack, where have you been all my life?

Date Posted: Sun Jan/29/12 at 9:48am

Posts: 157
Joined: 10-Sep-11

Stack:

Why the hell didnt morphing use the stack?! That was really stupid! Morph should have been an activated ability of the facedown creature, so that it could be responded to!

Date Posted: Sun Jan/29/12 at 12:20pm

Posts: 10194
Joined: 26-Oct-09

Zark probably could give you the rulings. . .

Date Posted: Sun Jan/29/12 at 1:51pm

Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

The rules that govern this are the ones that govern trigger abilities and spell resolution. Ie when trigger condition occurs ability goes to the top of the stack. Stack resolves top to bottom. People make this much more confusing then it needs to be.
But if you don't want to even argue. When they pull out their phones tell them to go to gatherer and pull up oblivion ring. Its the first rule governing the card

Date Posted: Sun Jan/29/12 at 2:35pm

Posts: 1081
Joined: 04-Apr-11

The rules really aren't that complicated, but they've made them so. Mostly it's because of how the game works, which is on the cards. So you print something and then ask are you "Playing" the spell or "Casting" the spell. The cards make it complicated and that won't change.

So the real trick is keeping everything consistent and there is no way that is ever going to happen.

If you've noticed, anyone trying to pull a fast one is trying to do it with wording issues and sometimes just idiot judges. Lastly, you need to have some sort of uniform code and whenever you apply a uniform code to a creative game you're going to have problems with something.

My comment before was don't bother with Errata. If you printed the card, live with the results and ban or restrict it if you need to.

Lastly, you're never going to get rid of at least the concept of the stack. I've seen it done cleanly, so it can be accomplished, but I see the problem being in card lock and activation. Nothing should be able to interrupt a card's full effect, so in the case of dual activation you can't interrupt it.

For instance, if you can cast Drain and pay 20 mana and get it countered and you've already spent the mana but deal no damage, but when you cast Flare and the creature disappears before it deals a point of damage you should be able to draw the card during upkeep. How does that make sense? A lightning bolt will strike the ground whether the creature is there or not! And you should be able to cast a Terror even though there are no black or artifact creatures in play!

There are a lot of complaints I have about the rules for years.

I also think that if a person gets put to 0 life and there are spells out there resolving they should resolve.

[Edited by darthnefas on 29/Jan/12 at 2:37PM]

Date Posted: Sun Jan/29/12 at 3:06pm

Posts: 10194
Joined: 26-Oct-09

It's called Magic. You can't really expect it to be logical.

Date Posted: Sun Jan/29/12 at 6:01pm

Posts: 157
Joined: 10-Sep-11

Playing without errata would be so stupid!

Date Posted: Tue Jan/31/12 at 8:13am

Posts: 109
Joined: 07-Sep-11

Sorry to just jump in, but you guys did know that Wizards has a toll-free number that you can call (When they are open) to ask about rules, right?

No, I don't know what it is right now, as I don't have it here at work, but I will post it if no one else does later on today.

Date Posted: Tue Jan/31/12 at 10:21am

Posts: 157
Joined: 10-Sep-11

Theres also this handy dandy thing called google...! And gatherer and magiccards.info, which have official rulings for most cards!

Date Posted: Tue Jan/31/12 at 12:30pm

Posts: 10194
Joined: 26-Oct-09

Gatherer is the best though!

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