Infinity Mana from Illusion

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Palinchron

Creature — Illusion

Urza's Legacy

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Flying When this creature enters, untap up to seven lands.

: Return this creature to its owner's hand.

4/5

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Clone

Creature — Shapeshifter

Magic 2011

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You may have this creature enter as a copy of any creature on the battlefield.

0/0

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Date Posted: Sat Jul/30/11 at 1:17 am

gunnar

Posts: 2
Joined: 30-Jul-11

Note : Exchange Clone with Phantasmal Image

First, summon Palinchron (with 7 land).
Second, summon Phantasmal Image with 7 land too. Copy Palinchron.
Third, bounce Phantasmal Image.

Repeat second and third process, and you got infinity mana.

I am right or wrong?

Date Posted: Sat Jul/30/11 at 1:32am

Dunny Nighthawk

Posts: 41
Joined: 22-Jul-10

If you bounce the phantasmal image it will "die" :/

Date Posted: Sat Jul/30/11 at 1:38am

Pal-of-Lim-Dul

Posts: 1148
Joined: 24-May-10

Dunny, I think you may be mistaken on this. The ability does not target so Phantasmal Image can bounce itself...

Date Posted: Sat Jul/30/11 at 8:21am

darthnefas

Posts: 1081
Joined: 04-Apr-11

Yup, no target, no trigger.

Date Posted: Sat Jul/30/11 at 8:30am

rav514

Posts: 329
Joined: 02-Dec-10

No he's right. it will die. The original ability lists the name of the card so the ability targets the card. When he copies it the name changes to Phantismal Inmage. When he activate the ability, it targets itself, cause the trigger to destroy it to go on top of the stack and resolve before the bounce resolves. Here is the Image. However this card will make it work.

Just in case someone wants to argue; think of it like this.
If Palinchron say "Return Lord of Unreal" would you argue that it doesn't target lord of unreal? The fact it names a card means it targets that card. Its just a very specific target. Naming the card replaces "target creature" but its still a target.

[Edited by rav514 on 30/Jul/11 at 8:33AM]

Duh, this is what happens when you try to think first thing in the morning. Lord of unreal won't make a difference cause the illusion doesn't care who targeted it, just that it was targeted. So this combo doesn't work.

[Edited by rav514 on 30/Jul/11 at 9:33AM]

Date Posted: Sat Jul/30/11 at 10:13am

darthnefas

Posts: 1081
Joined: 04-Apr-11

I see what you're saying, but I wouldn't agree and would argue with a judge who said it.

I think of it as a natural ability versus an inborn ability.

Here's a perfect example. Lets say there is a mage with a power pill that he creates from the inside. He can give anyone the pill, including himself and become bigger. He needs to target himself to make it happen, creating an external effect which is why it can be used by anyone.

But if he has an adrenlin boost internally he can't "target" himself with it. He just makes it happen.

With the way you're selling it a phantasm would kill itself whenever it farts because it targeted itself with deadly gas.

I see things as, spirit of the idea instead of the rules behind it though and they don't always cooperate, so I'm not saying you're wrong so much as saying I disagree and you suck and you go to Hell and you die! lol (note: just kidding on any past I disagree).

Date Posted: Sat Jul/30/11 at 11:08am

rav514

Posts: 329
Joined: 02-Dec-10

I get what ur saying but a target is a a target and an ability is an ability. There is a REASON THAT SPELL IS A CVC 2 CLONE when almost every other copy creature spell is 4 cvc or more.

[Edited by rav514 on 30/Jul/11 at 11:09AM]

Date Posted: Sat Jul/30/11 at 11:11am

rav514

Posts: 329
Joined: 02-Dec-10

He could do his combo with Helm of awaking or training grounds or both. It's not undoable, just not as easily broken as he wants.

ohh and regular clone

[Edited by rav514 on 30/Jul/11 at 11:28AM]

Date Posted: Sat Jul/30/11 at 11:29am

W@W Podcaster

Posts: 445
Joined: 01-Jun-10

The ability does not target, and this is why: For an ability to target, it must use the word target, or have a keyword ability that targets. For this to NOT work, the ability would have to say, "Return target creature named Palinchron to its owner's hand." The actual wording does not use the word target, and will not make you sacrifice the Clone.

Date Posted: Sat Jul/30/11 at 11:33am

Legend_Mageta

Posts: 76
Joined: 26-Feb-11

hungry is correct... IT DOES NOT SAY TARGET hence it does not target. this combo works and i like it.good work gunnar.

Date Posted: Sat Jul/30/11 at 12:51pm

rav514

Posts: 329
Joined: 02-Dec-10

I wanted to make a much more illustrated point but i have to go. I'll debate more tomorrow.

First of all, let me say this. YOu are correct, it doesn't say target.
ALso under the 2011 rules a card has to say "target".

However, this card was issued October 1998!!!!!! Go look up old school Shivan dragon vs new school. Old school doesn't name itself new school does. Back then, if a card named (or an other card) it targeted it.
THe rules changed but they forgot to errata the card. Hey they only had a couple million to issue errata for.

Also, think about what your proposing. If two players both have this card out and it does not target when it uses it's ability they can bounce each other's back even if they shroud it.

if you want to rules lawyer the card we can.
Does it say target......................... No
Does it name a card ....................... yes
Does it say i have to control the named card .....No

bounce away...
The card was written correctly for the era it was written and in that era it targeted itself. If someone did this in a tourney, wizard would issue the errata saying it targets itself. As it stand now; it works. But if you tried this at my table i'd vote "no till you called wizards". ( we do democracy on rules challenges at our tables). However, you'd get away with it in a tourney a few times i imagine.

Date Posted: Sat Jul/30/11 at 1:24pm

darthnefas

Posts: 1081
Joined: 04-Apr-11

Actually if we're talking about Palinchron, if you paid the 2UU to return it to your hand you couldn't target the other player's Palinchron. It just doesn't work like that.

That's like you having a Mogg Fanatic out and someone cloned it and you could sacrifice their Mogg Fanatic to deal a point of damage because yours said that.

I think that is what you just said, but I'm not sure because it doesn't make sense to me.

Date Posted: Sat Jul/30/11 at 2:40pm

gericault5

Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

Rav514- Ok I need you to sit down for this because its going to me a shocker. So sit down, take some deep breaths, relax... ok you still sitting? alright here it comes....It's not 1998

Its 2011 and here are the rules

114.9a Just because an object or player is being affected by a spell or ability doesn’t make that object or player a target of that spell or ability. Unless that object or player is identified by the word “target” in the text of that spell or ability, or the rule for that keyword ability, it’s not a target.

602.2. To activate an ability is to put it onto the stack and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Only an object’s controller (or its owner, if it doesn’t have a controller) can activate its activated ability unless the object specifically says otherwise

This combo works fine, they didn't forget to errta the card because there was no reason to.

Debate Over