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overly relentless rats

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Date Posted: Sun Jul/24/11 at 7:22 am

reaper
Posts: 436
Joined: 23-Jul-11

this is a simple concept I use it in my deck which consists of 3 x coat of arms 3 x door of destinies 4 x bloodbond march 3 x blasting station 3 x aluren 4 x cloudstone curio's and 20 relentless rats the idea is that however many rats die you can bring them back by playing one now if you have aluren in play as well as cloudstone curio and blasting station and door  with one rat out and one in hand this is what you do you play one from hand returning any from your grave to play and return the one sitting out to your hand now sacrifice 1 to blasting station play another for free this will bring the one that just died back to play you can also return a rat to hand which makes this combo infinite so enjoy curio's bounce loop was banned  or restricted but this is a way I've gone around that in some tourney's since it isn't you basic bounce idea.....one thing I didn't mention is with door out in the middle of this combo you are going to be looking at some huge rats if blasting station doesn't get em
Date Posted: Sun Jul/24/11 at 8:23am

rav514
Posts: 329
Joined: 02-Dec-10

Combo's like this make me glad i keep an exirpate or surgical extraction laying around. Good combo though. Would be awesome in commander since ppl usually don't keep exirpate and the like in their decks in that format. Ps. I did check and the rats are not banned in edh. Surprisingly.



[Edited by rav514 on 24/Jul/11 at 8:29AM]
Date Posted: Sun Jul/24/11 at 8:28am

reaper
Posts: 436
Joined: 23-Jul-11

right it is a nice surprise indeed I think these cards are in love with eachother bloodbond would definitely cheat on the golgari with these rats hahaha
Date Posted: Sun Jul/24/11 at 8:38am

rav514
Posts: 329
Joined: 02-Dec-10

Here is a dumb question:
Lets say your playing edh. You have "x" amount of relentless rats in your deck where "x" is greater than 1. We will say 30. If some one managed to get all 30 into your graveyard at the same time and then played Yixlid Jailer would you lose due to cheating and breaking the singleton rule?


[Edited by rav514 on 24/Jul/11 at 8:39AM]
Date Posted: Sun Jul/24/11 at 8:45am

reaper
Posts: 436
Joined: 23-Jul-11

no simply because the rat script is more of a scripture effect than an ability  for instance an ability would be battered golem untapping as another artifact enters play or something of that type I hope this helps with your question...however runed halo would shut this idea down or any other deck that has a 1 creature base though I like the idea you are striving for


[Edited by reaper on 24/Jul/11 at 8:48AM]

[Edited by reaper on 24/Jul/11 at 9:22AM]
Date Posted: Sun Jul/24/11 at 10:44am

rav514
Posts: 329
Joined: 02-Dec-10

I'm not sure about that interpretation. Though to be fair i really don't know. It feels like an ability of the card to me. Unearth wouldn't work. Dredge wouldn't work. Why should the rats ability to have more that normal maximum allowed to work? If i wanted to shut the deck down i could use Meddling Mage also. What was trying to do was figure out if its possible to force a player to forfeit by invalidating his deck. In this case, using the rules of deck construction. The player found a way around that rule. Would the Jailer force him to play by that rule again (if the jailer affected all of his rats) there by invalidating his deck and forcing a forfeit?

Ps. Do we have a judge in the house? I'm out of my league here.



[Edited by rav514 on 24/Jul/11 at 10:47AM]
Date Posted: Sun Jul/24/11 at 10:51am

rav514
Posts: 329
Joined: 02-Dec-10

2nd point. Other rules can be overridden and re-enforced. The legends rule comes to mind. You can play an artifact to override that rule and if the artifact leaves play the rule is re-enforced. In that case the rule simply kills all the duplicate legends. If that rule can be alter/broken and then "fixed" why can't this one. The concept is the same; the stakes are just bigger.

[Edited by rav514 on 24/Jul/11 at 10:52AM]
Date Posted: Sun Jul/24/11 at 10:54am

darthnefas
Posts: 1081
Joined: 04-Apr-11

lol, you still wouldn't be affecting the ones in his library, so as long as one Relentless Rat says "you can have as many as you want in your library" then it effects them all and you won't lose to cheating. 

I love comments like that.  At first you're like, that's a dumb question and once you've played long enough you say, "hey, the guy has a point!"  The card trumps the rules, but what if you suddenly remove the card!  Does the rule go away?  lol  Funny enough, it should!


[Edited by darthnefas on 24/Jul/11 at 10:55AM]
Date Posted: Sun Jul/24/11 at 11:05am

rav514
Posts: 329
Joined: 02-Dec-10

I know that any rats in hand or library would still work. For arguements sake assume all his rats are in the graveyard and then someone played the jailer. I.e. all his rats are affected by the jailer. In that highly unlikely situation what would happen? An academic discussion if you will.
Date Posted: Sun Jul/24/11 at 3:16pm

Dakkon Thued
Posts: 312
Joined: 15-Mar-10

So relentless rats isn't restricted with every other card in EDH? I assumed it was because every card is restricted in EDH. I know that the card trumps the rules, but it seems to defeat the purpose of EDH.
Date Posted: Sun Jul/24/11 at 3:17pm

Dakkon Thued
Posts: 312
Joined: 15-Mar-10

either way, awesome combo
Date Posted: Sun Jul/24/11 at 3:42pm

rav514
Posts: 329
Joined: 02-Dec-10

Not that i can tell. Relentless Rats is not banned in EDH and the card it self gets around the deck construction rules. 4 card limit normal play or 1 card limit in edh/commander.
Date Posted: Sun Jul/24/11 at 3:49pm

Dakkon Thued
Posts: 312
Joined: 15-Mar-10

Nah, I just looked it up. it can only have as many as you want in normal constructed formats.  in highlander/singleton, you can only have one.

 the gatherer card ruling states, "12/1/2004

This
card's text does not override other format-imposed restrictions on the
number of cards.  For example, in a Highlander format, you would still
only be allowed one Relentless Rat."

this is what I was thinking since ALL cards are restricted in EDH, and restrictions and bans would override the card text.
Date Posted: Sun Jul/24/11 at 4:24pm

rav514
Posts: 329
Joined: 02-Dec-10

cool.
Date Posted: Sun Jul/24/11 at 4:42pm

Dakkon Thued
Posts: 312
Joined: 15-Mar-10

how weird would that be to have like 60 to 70 relentless rats in an EDH deck tho? haha it would cost like over $100 depending on the edition for RATS! RATS!
Date Posted: Sun Jul/24/11 at 10:42pm

gericault5
Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

Before I answer the yixlid jailer question, I have to answer the other, and believe me I thought about answering this one because of what is going to come of it, but any way...

Multiple copies of Relentless Rats are legal in an EDH deck.

I don't suppose you all will just take my word for it :)

 

Didn't think so.

Ok ... in 2004 WOTC stated that the format imposed restrictions of number of cards will limit the number of relentless rats.  However in 2009, Sheldon Menery founder of EDH and executive member of the EDH Rules Commitee(ERC), declared that multiple Rats will be allowed in EDH. 

Since WOTC has made it clear they only support EDH and that the Rulemaking of the format will be left in the hands of the ERC, by making that decree Sheldon effectively overruled the Gatherer text in terms of EDH.  However, it can not be changed on gatherer since the ruling still does apply to WOTC established formats such as Highlander.

I would suggest checking with your play group before using it

 

As for the jailer-even with it in the game and 30 rats in the grave it was still a legal deck when the game started.  You don't all of a sudden have a deck that was legal become illegal.  the jailer won't affect the 2nd ability
Date Posted: Fri Mar/08/13 at 6:37pm

reaper
Posts: 436
Joined: 23-Jul-11

Ty to gericault for verifying how overly B A this coul get t.y. sir.
Date Posted: Sat Mar/09/13 at 8:15pm

RedZTape
Posts: 293
Joined: 13-Jan-13

Why would they restrict RR for EDH? If someone could pull that off it would be super funny. I don't think 60-70 copies is a good idea at all. EDH decks rarely have more than 40 creatures anyways and to make that sort of deck work right you would need tons of mana doublers (most of which are creatures in mono-black) and tutors.
Date Posted: Tue Mar/12/13 at 7:32pm

knarf_the_dwarf
Posts: 1370
Joined: 30-Nov-11

Here's the link Gericault5 mentioned: http://forum.mtgcommander.net/EDH_Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=127&start=15