cheap casting in edh

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Fist of Suns

Artifact

Fifth Dawn

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You may pay

rather than pay the mana cost for spells you cast.

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Progenitus

Legendary Creature — Hydra Avatar

Conflux

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Protection from everything If Progenitus would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, reveal Progenitus and shuffle it into its owner's library instead.

10/10

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Date Posted: Fri May/13/11 at 3:06 pm

nathanielleefrisbee

Posts: 4
Joined: 04-May-11

does anyone know if you can cast progenitus from the command zone with fist of suns and if you can does it negate the 2 colorless spent the next time you play it.

Date Posted: Fri May/13/11 at 6:50pm

Draco_lich

Posts: 1073
Joined: 07-May-10

not 100% sure, but i think you can cast anything from the command zone (or anywhere other than grave) with Fist of Suns ... and always for the same price, no matter how many death counters because of the wording on fist of suns (it says you may pay rather than the mana cost for spells that you play

Date Posted: Fri May/13/11 at 10:38pm

gericault5

Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

you will still need to pay the 2.

This 2 is an additional cost. fist of suns allows you to pay an alternate cost instead of the mana cost, so you can pay WBRGU instead of what is printed in the top right, however it does not effect any additional costs, you still have to pay those

Date Posted: Sat May/14/11 at 4:27am

Draco_lich

Posts: 1073
Joined: 07-May-10

read fist of suns... it says rather than pay the mana cost

Date Posted: Sat May/14/11 at 7:57am

RedPanda

Posts: 174
Joined: 27-Aug-10

Mana cost is a property of a card, in this case progenitus. The additional 2 respawn tax is an additional cost, not Part of Progenitus's printed mana cost. You would still need to pay the 2.

Date Posted: Sat May/14/11 at 8:38pm

Draco_lich

Posts: 1073
Joined: 07-May-10

so if someone had a general that said specifically on the card they can play a card without paying its mana cost (by paying something else) and it died, then they would have to pay the 2 + that cost again to make it come out again from the general station?... doesnt sound right .... if thats the case... then playing something that makes your opponents spells cost more to cast, means force of will will cost 2 mana on top of its other costs to play (and it does not)

Date Posted: Sat May/14/11 at 9:38pm

gericault5

Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

then playing something that makes your opponents spells cost more to cast, means force of will will cost 2 mana on top of its other costs to play (and it does not)

actually yeah it does. If your opponent has Sphere of Resistance out if you play Force of Will by its alternate cost you will need to exile a blue card, pay 1 life, pay 1 mana.

but back to the question at hand, Rule 602e from the compreshives rules states that when are determining the total cost you will need to pay for the spell it is the mana or alternate cost plus an additional cost or cost increasers minus any cost reducers.

So using the formula above and the alternate cost of the fist we have =

WRGBU + 2 (additional cost) - 0 (no reducers) which equals 2WRGBU the cost needing to be paid

For the Force of Will we have =

lose 1 life, exile blue card (the alternate cost) + 1 mana (cost increaser from sphere) - 0 (no reducers) = lose 1 life, exile blue card, 1 mana to cast force of will

Does that clarify why you still need to pay the additional 2 for each recast.

Date Posted: Sun May/15/11 at 6:07am

Draco_lich

Posts: 1073
Joined: 07-May-10

beleive me when i say this, i see what you are getting at, but on the other hand... i can see where the fist would override it because it says instead of the mana cost

this is the rulings on the card

12/1/2004: This is an alternative cost to cast a spell.

12/1/2004: You can't pay more than one alternative cost for a spell. For example, you can't cast a spell using its flashback ability by paying {W}{U}{B}{R}{G}. Likewise, you can't pay {W}{U}{B}{R}{G} to cast a creature with morph face down.

12/1/2004: Note that combining this card with Mycosynth Lattice from the Darksteel set means that all spells can be cast for five mana of any type (colored or colorless).

Legal in Vintage (Type 1)
Legal in Legacy (Type 1.5)
Legal in Classic (MTGO)

when it says you cant pay more than one alternative cost for a spell... then it means that the additional cost for general does not apply for fist of suns specifically, i personally think its the ONLY card in the game that is ruled in a way that lets you get the general for the same cost every time in edh ... think this will get edh banned sooner or later

Date Posted: Sun May/15/11 at 6:15am

Draco_lich

Posts: 1073
Joined: 07-May-10

While a Commander is in the command zone, it may be cast. As an additional cost to cast a Commander from the command zone, its owner must pay {2} for each time it was previously cast from the command zone. (ie: it costs 6WW to cast for the third time.) Details

A Commander is still subject to the normal timing restrictions for casting creatures (unless it has Flash or some other affect allows it to be played at another time, such as Vedalken Orrery)

the additional 2 is not a tax to be paid, it is added to the mana cost, unless paying 2 mana is not classed as a mana cost

Date Posted: Sun May/15/11 at 6:17am

Draco_lich

Posts: 1073
Joined: 07-May-10

if i am wrong in something... i will admit it (look at some of my other posts where i was wrong and admitted it)... but when i know i am not wrong in something i will not normally back down

Date Posted: Sun May/15/11 at 9:18am

gericault5

Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

when it says you cant pay more than one alternative cost for a spell... then it means that the additional cost for general does not apply for fist of suns specifically

Where are you getting this from. An alternate cost is a cost you can pay instead of the mana cost, it has nothing to do with additional costs. If you pay fling for an alternate cost you still need to sac otherwise its a waste. You can only pay 1 alternate means you can only pay 1 alternate cost it has nothing to do with additional costs. For example flashback and madness are alternate costs, you can play flashback by the alternative cost from the grave or madness by discarding and paying the madness cost, however if a card has madness you can either pay madness cost or fist of suns as the alternate. You can not discard and then use fist of suns to pay the madness cost. That will be two alternate costs

As for this...you have to undrrstand mana cost is the printed attribute of the card. It is what is printed on the top right corner of the card. So the mana cost for wrath of god is 2ww. This never changes wrath of god will always have a mana cost of 2ww. You can have cards and effects that raise or lower the cost being paid but they do not change the mana cost. Alternates allow you to play a card without paying the mana cost, in other words without paying what is written in the top right corner. However as I mentioned above modifers to what needs to be paid still apply

Basically the mana cost and what needs to be paid are not always the same amount. And since mana cost is a fixed thing the 2 recast cost is not part of the mana cost. it is an additional and still needs to be paid

[Edited by gericault5 on 15/May/11 at 2:21PM]

Date Posted: Sun May/15/11 at 8:27pm

Draco_lich

Posts: 1073
Joined: 07-May-10

the first one was directly from wizards, the second was from the site where EDH started more than a decade ago

Date Posted: Sun May/15/11 at 8:33pm

Draco_lich

Posts: 1073
Joined: 07-May-10

read fist of suns ..... it says instead of paying its mana costs you pay RGBUW , this is the first time ive ever had to argue about a rules call... especially when i cut and pasted the official DCI rulings on the card, and the EDH rulings from where EDH started from those many years ago... i remember when EDH was only a prototype... there was soo many variants at the time, including a way to play magic as a solitaire (one deck total needed ... i can explain how to later.. i use that for testing a deck before playing anyone) but it has been refined in those years to become what it is today (was much needed)

Date Posted: Sun May/15/11 at 9:12pm

gericault5

Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

Like you I will admit when I'm wrong and when I'm right I'll defend my answer. A question was asked and right now there are two answers but like in EDH there can only be one.

read fist of suns ..... it says instead of paying its mana costs you pay RGBUW

yes it does, not arging that. That is what an alternate cost is-you pay something besides the mana cost, but the 2 recast is not part of the mana cost

especially when i cut and pasted the official DCI rulings on the card, and the EDH rulings from where EDH started from those many years ago.

Yes you did post those but nothing that was posted supports your opinion about what happens, in fact what you posted from the EDH site supports my arguement that the 2 is an additional cost, not related to the mana cost. If you recall from one of my posts above I stated rule 602.e, which to summarize is when paying for a spell you take the alternate cost plus any additional costs to come up with the cost you need to pay.

Let me throw out another rule for you, number 202.4

202.4. Any additional cost listed in an object’s rules text or imposed by an effect isn’t part of the mana cost. (See rule 601, “Casting Spells.”) Such costs are paid at the same time as the spell’s other costs.

Date Posted: Mon May/16/11 at 2:45am

Draco_lich

Posts: 1073
Joined: 07-May-10

then what do you pay the 2 with if not mana?

Date Posted: Mon May/16/11 at 10:05am

W@W Podcaster

Posts: 445
Joined: 01-Jun-10

You pay the two with colorless mana... Also, if it worked the way you think, Akroma, angel of Fury would be one of the most broken generals in all of EDH. You would morph it every time for 3 mana, and never have to pay the death tax, ever. First of all, that doesn't seem fair, and second, it doesn't work like that. Let's just say that you control a Lodestone Golem, and your opponent casts a spell out of suspend. Although the spell is cast without paying its mana cost, you still need to pay the extra one. This is because you are paying an additional cost.

Also, you could take Devastating Summons as an example. Lets just say that you control a Jhoira of the Ghitu, and you use her to suspend the Devastating Summons. You still need to sacrifice the lands when it comes out of suspend. If you are not allowed to pay the additional cost when you don't pay the mana cost, you would have a devastating summons that does nothing. Even if you use a Fist of Suns to pay an alternate cost instead of no cost, you still need to pay the additional cost.

Now that it has been explained, it seems a little silly that you don't pay additional costs, right?

Date Posted: Mon May/16/11 at 12:43pm

gericault5

Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

Draco-the confusion you are having is because you are thinking that that Mana Cost is the same thing as paying mana for casting costs. however, you need to understand they are not the same thing.

Mana Cost- as mentioned above is a characteristic of the card. It is printed directly on the card in the top right hand corner. This never changes proggy will always have a mana cost of WWRRGGBBUU. Nothing will ever change that.

Paying mana for casting costs-there are 7 steps to playing a spell, we are going to focus on step 5 since that is the one that matters pay the costs. When cast a spell you need to pay for it and the amount you pay is determined by taking the mana cost adding any additional costs or cost increasers and then subtracting any cost decreasers. Which will then give you what you have to pay.

Lets use clothing as an example: the price of a suit is $100 so tax (at 5%) will be $5, so when buying the suit you need to pay $105. However, the price of the suit didn't change it's still $100. So in this example the shirt =the mana cost, the $5 tax = the additional cost, while the $105 equals the cost needed to cast.

An alternate cost allows you to pay a differant amount for the mana cost. So putting the alternate cost in the italiced formula above its alternate cost plus any additional costs or cost increasers and then subtracting any cost decreasers. Which will then give you what you have to pay.

So back to the suit example the alternate cost is you have a 50% off coupon, so now the suit costs $50 and the tax is $2.50 meaning the cost needing to be paid is $52.50.

I can understand why this can be confusing, most of the time we play in the equilvant of a tax-free state., and your $50 suit only costs you $50, however, just got to remember that card increasers and decreasers, like gloom, grand arbitor and the medellions change the price your paying by adding tax or giving discount coupons, however they don't change the cost of the item (mana cost)

Date Posted: Mon May/16/11 at 5:38pm

psyche

Posts: 1250
Joined: 31-Aug-09

This is why Trinisphere stops most aluren combos. Look at the rulings for is at http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=194979 . It was one of the first cost modifiers, and so has it explained very nicely.

Date Posted: Tue May/17/11 at 4:59am

Draco_lich

Posts: 1073
Joined: 07-May-10

thank-you psyche that does clarify it... and proves my point that it is a replacement cost, regardless of what other costs there would otherwise be

Date Posted: Tue May/17/11 at 5:00am

Draco_lich

Posts: 1073
Joined: 07-May-10

as for it being like a tax (which i still say it is not)... show in the official rulings where there is a tax please (if there is one)

Date Posted: Tue May/17/11 at 2:03pm

gericault5

Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

and proves my point that it is a replacement cost, regardless of what other costs there would otherwise be

How does trinisphere prove your point? Trinisphere's effect occurs after you determine what the cost to cast is, which you determine by using the formula I wrote above taken from rule 602.e. When you find the cost of casting if it is less then 3 triniesphere occurs. However the additional cost from recasting your general is applied during the determination of the cost of casting. This is further supported by the rulings of trinisphere which is below with the relevent part bolded:

Trinisphere's ability affects the total cost of the spell. It is applied *after* any other cost increasers or cost reducers are applied: First apply any cost increases. Next apply any cost reducers. Finally look at the amount of mana you have to pay. If it's less than three mana, you'll pay three mana.

So Aluren is an alternate cost casting method but it still uses the formula in 602.e, with the difference being for creatures with cmc 3 or lower the alternate cost is 0 so the forumla will be 0 + additional costs/increasers - decreasers = X. With Trinisphere in play if X is less then 3, x will automatically become 3, however, you still need to apply the formula and you still need to add in the additional costs.

as for it being like a tax (which i still say it is not)... show in the official rulings where there is a tax please (if there is one)

A tax is additional money you need to pay to make a purchases. So a tax is an additional cost. So your question is "where in the rulings does it say its an additional cost" The answer is simple, its in what you posted from the EDH website, here it is

While a Commander is in the command zone, it may be cast. As an additional cost to cast a Commander from the command zone, its owner must pay {2} for each time it was previously cast from the command zone. (ie: it costs 6WW to cast for the third time.)

So you asked me to show you a ruling and I did. In this discussion I have given rulings from the comprehensive rules supporting why you need to pay the additional cost. I have taken the things you posted and showed how they support you having to pay the costs, again using the rules to do it. Now I would like to see a rule from you supporting why you don't have to pay it using the fist.

Date Posted: Thu May/19/11 at 1:46pm

nathanielleefrisbee

Posts: 4
Joined: 04-May-11

Show Details

FROM:

Carsten Haese

TO:

nathaniel frisbee

CC:

cranial.insertion@gmail.com

Message flagged

Wednesday, May 18, 2011 9:36 PM

On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 3:35 PM, nathaniel frisbee
<nathanielleefrisbee@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> My question is about Commander. If Progenitus is my general and I have a Fist of Suns in play can I play the Progenitus for WBURG? If I can do this will the Fist of Suns negate the additional 2 colorless spent for the next time Progenitus is cast from the command zone? Or will I have to pay 2WBURG.

Hi Nathaniel, thanks for writing in.

To determine the total cost of a spell, you start with its mana cost
or alternative cost, then you add additional costs and cost increases,
then you subtract cost reductions, and finally you apply effects that
affect the total cost (such as Trinisphere). Fist of Suns gives your
commander an alternative cost. The cost of {2} for each time you cast
your commander from the command zone before is an additional cost that
is added to the alternative cost. This means that you have to pay
{2WUBRG} to cast your commander from the command zone the second time.

--
Carsten Haese

Date Posted: Thu May/19/11 at 11:58pm

Draco_lich

Posts: 1073
Joined: 07-May-10

i've had 3 official DCI judges tell me that fist of suns ability happens after all costs (including supplemental costs) are applied, so it is a complete replacement of cost, however, it can be stifled or the likes, unlike a regular replacement cost (more vulnerable to interference that would waste your mana)

Date Posted: Fri May/20/11 at 10:28am

gericault5

Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

So you can't give an official rule huh...not suprising since it doesn't exist

I'm not really interested in what 3 judges might have said, especially when you take into account you have judges and rule advisors saying your wrong and that you pay the 2 during the course of this thread.

Your very first post in this thread started with the phrase "not 100% sure, I think...". For someone who was not 100% sure you speak with alot of conviction now. Making me think its easy for you to speak to your judges, at the very least since its friday its easy to find a judge as a local event. In either case ask them to provide you with a ruling on why it works the way you say and when they can't ask them how this rule applys

The player determines the total cost of the spell. Usually this is just the mana cost. Some spells have additional or alternative costs. Some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay, or may provide other alternative costs. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost or alternative cost (as determined in rule 601.2b), plus all additional costs and cost increases, and minus all cost reductions. If the mana component of the total cost is reduced to nothing by cost reduction effects, it is considered to be {0}. It can’t be reduced to less than {0}. Once the total cost is determined, any effects that directly affect the total cost are applied. Then the resulting total cost becomes “locked in.” If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.

This is rule 601.2e (sorry I was writting 602e) notice how it says alternative costs plus... And then remind them how gatherer states how fist is an alternative cost, and how the commander website states the 2 is an additional cost. Oh and then ask them how do you stifle the fist since it is not a triggered or activated ability.

Again, I have given official rules on why you need to pay the 2 mana, now show me official rules on why you don't have to.