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Combo Name: force opponent to lose Submitted By: cwn430
Card Name
Type
Cost
P/T
Editions (ordered by release)

Final Fortune
 Instant RR 6th Edition, Rare

Hive Mind
 Enchantment 5U Magic 2010, Rare
Estimated Combo Cost: $2.36
Date Posted: Mon Nov/15/10 at 12:15 pm

cwn430
Posts: 5
Joined: 15-Jul-10

I'm not too sure that this works, but i think it's worth a post. so with hive mind on the battlefield, you cast final fortune on your opponent's turn, such that their duplicate of final fortune goes onto the stack above yours, and they would end up taking the extra turn before you. Of course, you would cast this when they have a poor board position and are incapable of winning even if they are given an extra turn.

does this work?
Date Posted: Mon Nov/15/10 at 12:55pm

newb
Posts: 175
Joined: 02-Feb-10

I don' think this would work because your oppontents  can choose new targets with Hive Mind.
Date Posted: Mon Nov/15/10 at 1:24pm

Turbine
Posts: 10194
Joined: 26-Oct-09

You can't choose targets on a spell that says "you". I'm not sure who would take the turn first though.
Date Posted: Mon Nov/15/10 at 1:30pm

newb
Posts: 175
Joined: 02-Feb-10

So when your opponents use the ability of Hive Mind they will not get to choose new targets because the original instant does not let you target. I wondering why when Hive Mind says than can choose a new target for the spell. This is very confusing. Must be a rule to this some where.
Date Posted: Mon Nov/15/10 at 2:53pm

Houston
Posts: 101
Joined: 17-Mar-10

This would work, but because it get copied when you cast it, then the FIFO would make you lose.

The reason Hive Mind has the target system is for spells that need targets, they just wanted to cover the basis to avoid arguments. Spells without a target needed still don't need one.
Date Posted: Mon Nov/15/10 at 3:02pm

W@W Podcaster
Posts: 445
Joined: 01-Jun-10

This would work because of the active player / nonactive player(apnap) rules. The spell and its copies go on the stack in apnap order. This means that your FF would go on the stack first, then the person whose turn is next, and so on. If you are playing in a clockwise turn order, the person to your right will take his/her turn first, then the person to that person's right, and so on. By the time you will take your extra turn, all of your opponents would have lost because of FF, unless they have something like Platinum Angel.

Also, if a spell that targets is copied by Hive Mind, the controllers of the copies may choose the target(s). If the spell does not target, that part of Hive Mind's ability is disregarded.


[Edited by Hungry123 on 15/Nov/10 at 3:16PM]
Date Posted: Mon Nov/15/10 at 3:04pm

newb
Posts: 175
Joined: 02-Feb-10

So to clarify, Hive Mind would not let you pick a target of a spell that doesn't say target on it? Sorry but this would be cool if it did, or if there were other spells that would do this.
Date Posted: Mon Nov/15/10 at 3:06pm

W@W Podcaster
Posts: 445
Joined: 01-Jun-10

Yeah, it would be really cool. Too bad it doesn't work that way.
Date Posted: Mon Nov/15/10 at 3:07pm

newb
Posts: 175
Joined: 02-Feb-10

Thanks for the help. This is a sick combo.
Date Posted: Mon Nov/15/10 at 3:14pm

gericault5
Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

Sorry but this does not work and has noting to do with apnap order. Its simply since yours the orginal is the last to resolve you would take your extra turn first
Date Posted: Mon Nov/15/10 at 3:16pm

newb
Posts: 175
Joined: 02-Feb-10

OK Nevermind. I will ask a judge.
Date Posted: Mon Nov/15/10 at 3:17pm

gericault5
Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

Apnap only applies when there are multiple things going on the stack at one time such as multiple at the end of turn triggers. This is not the case here where everything resolves and goes on the stack in player order
Date Posted: Mon Nov/15/10 at 3:19pm

W@W Podcaster
Posts: 445
Joined: 01-Jun-10

  • 10/1/2009: If a player casts an instant or sorcery spell, Hive Mind's ability triggers and is put on the stack on top of that spell. Hive Mind's ability will resolve first. When it does, it creates a number of copies of that spell equal to the number of players in the game minus one. First the player whose turn it is (or, if that's the player who cast the original spell, the player to that player's left) puts his or her copy on the stack, choosing new targets for it if he or she likes. Then each other player in turn order does the same. The last copy put on the stack will be the first one that resolves. (Note that the very last thing to happen is that the original spell resolves.)
    • I got this off of magiccards.info . I think that everybody on this site would agree that this is a reliable source.
    Date Posted: Mon Nov/15/10 at 3:21pm

    newb
    Posts: 175
    Joined: 02-Feb-10

    Good because I feel like, very confused man.
    Date Posted: Mon Nov/15/10 at 3:24pm

    W@W Podcaster
    Posts: 445
    Joined: 01-Jun-10

    I'm sorry, this doesn't actually matter if it uses apnap. But it does work(see my earlier post).
    Date Posted: Mon Nov/15/10 at 3:25pm

    gericault5
    Posts: 2788
    Joined: 13-Oct-09

    And I'm not arguing with that. Since the orignal final fortune is the last to resolve it must be on the bottom of the stack And the copies above. However for the game to continue the stack must be empty with means the orignal is the last to resolve and therefore occurs first.
    Apnap can't apply simply because as an instant you can play it on an opponents turn when they are the active player and we know his copy can't go below the orignal
    Date Posted: Mon Nov/15/10 at 3:29pm

    W@W Podcaster
    Posts: 445
    Joined: 01-Jun-10

  • 10/4/2004: If multiple "extra turn" effects resolve in the same turn, take them in the reverse of the order that the effects resolved.
    • I'm sorry. This ruling is from FF on magiccards.info . I apologize for any confusion.
    Date Posted: Mon Nov/15/10 at 4:18pm

    Ephemerance
    Posts: 913
    Joined: 18-Jun-09

    Needs a counterspell to work.
    Date Posted: Mon Nov/15/10 at 4:19pm

    Ephemerance
    Posts: 913
    Joined: 18-Jun-09

    Or a stifle



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