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Turn 0 Win in Legacy

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GrapeshotEnlarge

Grapeshot

{1}{R}

Sorcery

Time Spiral

Read rules for Grapeshot
Grapeshot deals 1 damage to any target. Storm (When you cast this spell, copy it for each spell cast before it this turn. You may choose new targets for the copies.)

Full card details & printings ›

Date Posted: Tue Sep/14/10 at 2:37 am

scone
Posts: 4
Joined: 14-Sep-10

!!NOTE: Combo requires Leyline of Anticipation to function turn 0!! (apparently this site doesn't have it in the database...?)

Opening hand you hope for a LoA and 3 of of the spirit guides and begin with LoA in play. Now that all your nonlands have flash, ditch the elf, GoN through your deck full of 0- or X-drop creatures; ditch the ape and grapeshot your way to victory!  :)  I would reccommend having a FoW or Pact of Negation in there just in case, but they are not required for the combo to work. Summoner's pact would also prove usefull to go grab your spirit guides, but it is also not needed to make it work   :)

Inspired through the "sickest combo" thread I replied to.


[Edited by scone on 14/Sep/10 at 2:38AM]
Date Posted: Tue Sep/14/10 at 3:01am

RedPanda
Posts: 174
Joined: 27-Aug-10

Yeehaw
Date Posted: Tue Sep/14/10 at 3:31am

JMDin83
Posts: 880
Joined: 30-Jul-09

thats pretty sick lol
Date Posted: Tue Sep/14/10 at 5:18am

Gregorius
Posts: 412
Joined: 01-Aug-10

It's actually pretty poor. Consider the following:
  • To have any chance to make this work, you not only need plenty of 0-mana creatures in your deck, at least twenty... and, no, creatures with a CMC of X (like Phyrexian Marauder or Shifting Wall) won't do.
  • ...but you also need those four five (my mistake, forgot about the Leyline) cards in your starting hand. To reliably draw those cards, you'll need multiples of them up to the maximum of four each.
  • To get the one-hit KO, you need to draw and play all of your 0-mana creatures in one turn and then play Grapeshot... and as you play your 0-mana creatures, you draw a card. The odds of you drawing a land (if you even put any lands in your deck) or a creature / spell with a CMC of 1+ is as good as your chance of drawing a 0-mana creature... if not better, because - let's face it - there are only six 0-mana creatures.
Now you tell me the odds of drawing twenty or more creature cards you oh-so-desperately need in a deck of around sixty, all in rapid succession... not good, is it? I didn't think so either.

While it's a good combo in theory (like all Turn 1 wins), let me remind you that theory is like a biscuit boat adrift in a sea of milk - a good idea when you first think of it, but you set sail and it's bound to crumble. 

[Edited by Gregorius on 14/Sep/10 at 5:29AM]
Date Posted: Tue Sep/14/10 at 7:05am

Ephemerance
Posts: 913
Joined: 18-Jun-09


Date Posted: Tue Sep/14/10 at 8:05am

RedPanda
Posts: 174
Joined: 27-Aug-10

Actually, the only csrds you need in hand are leyline and glimpse... All the other pieces have many cards that will rfill the slot or get drawn with glmpse if you have more cmc0 creatures. Still unlikely but not as bad as you make it sond. Heck, you don't even need leyline you can go off turn 1
Date Posted: Wed Mar/16/11 at 12:10am

Akinas86
Posts: 327
Joined: 16-Jun-10

why bother with the leyline? use land grant and like 1 land to start the GoA chain. end with grapeshot
Date Posted: Wed Mar/16/11 at 1:39am

shakii23
Posts: 5711
Joined: 08-Sep-09

or better yet... just to be sure, Mana Severance, But needs moxes...
Date Posted: Wed Mar/16/11 at 2:26am

shakii23
Posts: 5711
Joined: 08-Sep-09

and there is no such thing as a turn 0 win...

you can't do anything before turn 1 starts... well, except the typical draw 7 cards, roll dice/flip coin, mulligan, putting down leylines and gemstone caverns, etc...
Date Posted: Wed Mar/16/11 at 10:07am

W@W Podcaster
Posts: 445
Joined: 01-Jun-10

Actually, there are 9 0 cost creatures, so you could have a LOT of them in your deck, also, because you don't need the leyline, you can mull down to 5 at most, giving you a better chance to pull this combo off.
Date Posted: Wed Mar/16/11 at 11:45am

Nightmare
Posts: 145
Joined: 13-Mar-11

ACTUALLY there is a 0 turn win, but u need your opponent has to put phage out on the field first turn with dark rituals and before he ends his turn discard cards that give u mana and remove phage form game until end of turn .
Date Posted: Wed Mar/16/11 at 12:24pm

gericault5
Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

It is not possible to have a turn 0 win.  You can begin the game with the leylines or gemstone caverns in play, but other then that, If you have the opportunity to do anything it means that the beginning of turn phase has occured, which means the game is under way. 
Date Posted: Wed Mar/16/11 at 12:35pm

Nightmare
Posts: 145
Joined: 13-Mar-11

reread what i just said, the game is already underway if your opponent went first!!!!!
Date Posted: Wed Mar/16/11 at 12:48pm

W@W Podcaster
Posts: 445
Joined: 01-Jun-10

Yeah, but it is the first turn of the game, meaning that it is turn 1, not turn 0.
Date Posted: Wed Mar/16/11 at 12:52pm

Nightmare
Posts: 145
Joined: 13-Mar-11

for my opponent it is
Date Posted: Wed Mar/16/11 at 12:57pm

Nightmare
Posts: 145
Joined: 13-Mar-11

it is all done on my opponents first turn so at the end of his turn he loses the game because phage came it play under his control but not from his hand before my draw step
Date Posted: Wed Mar/16/11 at 1:08pm

gericault5
Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

I do get that, but it seems your a little confused, so let me explain,  it does require some higher math such as "1 comes after 0" so i'll try to talk slow.

If the game began.. then turn 1 is occuring, and your opponent plays phage turn 1, and you flicker phage turn 1.  Then wouldn't you win on turn 1?

Ok hope that wasn't to mind boggling.

 

 

Ok thanks for being a sport about the above.  basically it is coming down to perception it is perceived as a Turn 0 becasue you haven't taken your turn yet.  But the way turns work is that your opponent goes first for turn 1, you go next (for your first turn in the game) which is turn 2, back to your opponent for turn 3, etc...

As a result it is impossble to have a turn 0 win the earliest is during the upkeep on turn 1
Date Posted: Wed Mar/16/11 at 1:09pm

Nightmare
Posts: 145
Joined: 13-Mar-11

the only other way it could go for the opponent is if they add lighting greaves to phage and attacks u, in this case u would have to target your opponent to remove an attacking creature from the game until end of turn. i have thought about this hard , i have to deal with it in games.
Date Posted: Wed Mar/16/11 at 1:12pm

Nightmare
Posts: 145
Joined: 13-Mar-11

ok now that is understandable and where do u go for a rule book , cause i might need to read this up
Date Posted: Wed Mar/16/11 at 1:13pm

gericault5
Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

but you have an opportunity to flicker phage before the greaves are equiped,

still turn 1 though :-)
Date Posted: Wed Mar/16/11 at 1:14pm

gericault5
Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

wizards website-under resources if i recall
Date Posted: Wed Mar/16/11 at 1:16pm

Nightmare
Posts: 145
Joined: 13-Mar-11

i always thought its was opponent 1 , your 1, opponent 2 ,your 2,as in your turns
Date Posted: Wed Mar/16/11 at 1:17pm

Nightmare
Posts: 145
Joined: 13-Mar-11

thanks, need to bookmark it
Date Posted: Wed Mar/16/11 at 1:23pm

Nightmare
Posts: 145
Joined: 13-Mar-11

rules agree with me looks like
Date Posted: Wed Mar/16/11 at 9:37pm

gericault5
Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

I was actually looking for it earlier but couldn't find it.  Where did you?  What number is it?
Date Posted: Thu Mar/17/11 at 2:42am

Draco_lich
Posts: 1073
Joined: 07-May-10

thought turn 0 means that your opponent or you did not get a turn at all, just a thought
Date Posted: Thu Mar/17/11 at 10:53am

Nightmare
Posts: 145
Joined: 13-Mar-11

http://www.wizards.com/magic/rules/EN_MTGM11_Rulebook_LR_Web.pdf
Date Posted: Thu Mar/17/11 at 2:25pm

gericault5
Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

Don't see anything that supports your opinion, but then again don't see anything to support mine. It might be in the floor rules since that is the only place it matters however, I dont care enough to look. In the end its a trival matter anyway. So let's just say it depends on the table. Its a turn 0 in your kitchen...turn 1 in mine :-)



[Edited by gericault5 on 17/Mar/11 at 2:28PM]
Date Posted: Thu Mar/17/11 at 6:00pm

lin sivvi
Posts: 1608
Joined: 14-Jan-10

on the matter of defining turns. . . who really cares?
Date Posted: Thu Mar/17/11 at 8:07pm

Nightmare
Posts: 145
Joined: 13-Mar-11

im good with that




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