Magic The Gathering Combos
Search Cards & Combos:

Home     Submit A Combo     Deck Builder     Forums     Picture Guess     Help

You are not logged in [click to login] - [Join For Free!]  





Forum Overview >> Combos
Combo Name: infinite mana? Submitted By: Captain_Joe
Card Name
Type
Cost
P/T
Editions (ordered by release)

Ashnod's Altar
 Poly Artifact 3 Antiquities, Uncommon

Kathari Remnant
 Creature - Bird Skeleton 2UB 0 / 1 Alara Reborn, Uncommon
Estimated Combo Cost: $0.58
Date Posted: Tue Aug/31/10 at 7:46 pm

Captain_Joe
Posts: 80
Joined: 20-Jul-10

this doesnt work does it?

just checking
Date Posted: Tue Aug/31/10 at 8:14pm

Wizard
Posts: 2
Joined: 15-Jul-10

no, you can;'t regenerate a sacrificed creature. and you need black mana to regenerate the creature while the artifact only provides colorless mana
Date Posted: Tue Aug/31/10 at 8:35pm

Turbine
Posts: 10194
Joined: 26-Oct-09

Regenerating a sacrificed creature would be broken.
Date Posted: Tue Aug/31/10 at 9:17pm

Captain_Joe
Posts: 80
Joined: 20-Jul-10

well i didnt really care about that specific combo i just wanted to know if you could regen a saced creature

i was 99% sure you couldnt but i didnt want to miss out on it if you could, because it would be extremely amazing
Date Posted: Tue Aug/31/10 at 10:34pm

shakii23
Posts: 5711
Joined: 08-Sep-09

haha.. that would make Masticore, overpowered...
Date Posted: Wed Sep/01/10 at 2:00pm

newb
Posts: 175
Joined: 02-Feb-10

It's too bad they changed the rules about blocking and sacking. I hate that you can't block and do damage and the sac it. BS
Date Posted: Wed Sep/01/10 at 2:01pm

Turbine
Posts: 10194
Joined: 26-Oct-09

I agree. My Esper deck would win every FNM with the old rules. Thopter Foundry FTW!
Date Posted: Wed Sep/01/10 at 2:06pm

newb
Posts: 175
Joined: 02-Feb-10

Hells yah.
Date Posted: Wed Sep/01/10 at 2:07pm

Turbine
Posts: 10194
Joined: 26-Oct-09

I am going to play against my friends with old rules from now on.
Date Posted: Wed Sep/01/10 at 7:19pm

shakii23
Posts: 5711
Joined: 08-Sep-09

i love the old rules too bad i can't use it anymore other than on house rules...
Date Posted: Wed Sep/01/10 at 7:19pm

Turbine
Posts: 10194
Joined: 26-Oct-09

Especially the pseudo-deathtouch rules.
Date Posted: Wed Sep/01/10 at 7:48pm

shakii23
Posts: 5711
Joined: 08-Sep-09

and dealing combat damage rulings altogether...
Date Posted: Wed Sep/01/10 at 7:49pm

Turbine
Posts: 10194
Joined: 26-Oct-09

What are the exact combat rules?
Date Posted: Wed Sep/01/10 at 8:17pm

shakii23
Posts: 5711
Joined: 08-Sep-09

Combat Damage No Longer Uses the Stack

The Reality: The intricate system via which combat is currently handled creates many unintuitive gameplay moments. For starters, "the stack" is a difficult concept, even after all these years, so it is no wonder that many players go about combat without invoking it at all. Second, creatures disappearing after damage has been put on the stack leads to a ton of confusion and disbelief: How is that Mogg Fanatic killing two creatures? How did that creature kill mine but make your Nantuko Husk big enough to survive? How can you Unsummon your creature and have it still deal damage? While many of us may be used to the way things are now, it makes no sense in terms of a game metaphor and only a bit more sense as a rule.


The Fix: As soon as damage is assigned in the combat damage step, it is dealt. There is no time to cast spells and activate abilities in between; the last time to do so prior to damage being dealt is during the declare blockers step.

This was a particularly tricky change to implement, as it had the potential to create bad experiences in situations where double blocking occurs and the defending player has access to a damage prevention ability (or anything similar). If damage was prevented to one creature, the attacker would just kill the other, which is unintuitive. Players expect to be able to use their healing spells to save creatures that are actually going to die. To solve problems like these, during the declare blockers step, if a creature is blocked by multiple creatures, the attacker immediately announces an order in which that attacking creature will be assigning damage to the blockers. When it comes time to actually deal the damage, lethal damage must be assigned to the first blocker before any can be assigned to the second, and so on. Now, in complex combat situations there will be some foreknowledge of which creatures are in the most danger before damage is dealt.

This is not as sweeping as it sounds. In the majority of cases, creatures attack, creatures block, and combat looks the same way it did before—minus the chance for counterintuitive tricks after "damage on." The majority of the explanation below covers multiple blocks.


The Details: This changes what happens during the declare blockers step and what happens during the combat damage step.

Combat Phase

Beginning of combat step
Declare attackers step
Declare blockers step
Combat damage step
End of combat step


And the deathtouch rule which is
Deathtouch


The Reality: There are two problems with deathtouch. One, the fact that it is a triggered ability leads to instances where a single creature needs to regenerate twice from a single source with deathtouch, which is unnecessarily hard to intuit. Second, the deathtouch ability as currently worded doesn't work well under the new combat rules. If a creature with deathtouch, like Kederekt Creeper, is double-blocked by two 3/3s, the new rules wouldn't allow the division of damage between the blockers, which kind of defeats the point of the card and fails to live up to expectations of how deathtouch should function.

The Fix: First, deathtouch is becoming a static ability. Creatures dealt damage by a source with deathtouch will be destroyed as a state-based effect at the same time lethal damage would kill them. As a side effect, multiple instances of deathtouch will no longer be cumulative. Second, deathtouch allows a double-blocked creature to ignore the new damage assignment rules and split its damage among any number of creatures it's in combat with however its controller wants to.


The Details: I'm going to start on a tangent. The game continually checks for certain messy game conditions, and then immediately deals with them to clean up the game state. For example, if an Aura is on the battlefield but not attached to anything (because the enchanted creature went away), the Aura is put into its owner's graveyard. If more than one legendary permanent with the same name is on the battlefield, they're all put into their owners' graveyards. If a player has 0 or less life, that player loses the game. There are more, and these results are called "state-based effects." I like to think of the game constantly checking for, and scrubbing out, these messy conditions as the Magic equivalent of the fleet of automatic cleaning robots that silently sweeps through my subterranean lair every few seconds or so.

The next edition of the Comprehensive Rulebook will contain a new state-based effect, which I'll paraphrase here: "A creature that's been dealt damage by a source with deathtouch since the last time state-based effects were checked is destroyed." As Aaron stated, this is the same process that the game uses to destroy a creature that's been dealt lethal damage. The two events will now look exactly the same.

There are two ramifications to this. First, if you want to regenerate your creature (or bounce it, or sacrifice it, or whatever), you better do so before it's dealt damage by a source with deathtouch. The grace period that used to exist while the deathtouch triggered ability was waiting to resolve is gone. Once that damage has been dealt, state-based effects will wipe out that creature immediately. Again, this is the same thing that happens if your creature is dealt lethal damage.

Second, if your creature is dealt lethal damage by a source with deathtouch (for example, if Drudge Skeletons is blocking Moonglove Winnower), a single regeneration shield is enough to keep it alive. Two state-based effects are trying to kill the Skeletons (one that deals with lethal damage and one that deals with damage from a source with deathtouch). Since all state-based effects are processed simultaneously, one regeneration effect will cover them both.

The new rules care whether a damage source has deathtouch, which leads to notable changes in certain scenarios. Let's say a creature has both deathtouch and a damage ability, like a Prodigal Pyromancer equipped with Quietus Spike. If the ability is activated targeting a creature, but the Pyromancer leaves the battlefield before it resolves, then the game determines the characteristics of the damage source by checking its last existence on the battlefield. If the Spike was still equipping the Pyromancer at the time the Pyromancer left, then the source has deathtouch (just like the source is red, and the source is a creature). The creature that's dealt damage is destroyed. (Wither already works like this in similar situations.) Under the old deathtouch rules, this wouldn't have happened because deathtouch wouldn't be around to trigger.

Moving on to combat .... If a creature with deathtouch is blocked by multiple creatures, the declare blockers step works the same way. The attacking player still orders the blocking creatures to show which is first in line for damage, which is second, and so on. The ordering is irrelevant to the creature with deathtouch, but it's still done because the creature might lose deathtouch before combat damage is assigned.

When it comes time to assign combat damage, a player can divide damage from a creature with deathtouch as he or she chooses among any of the creatures blocking or blocked by it. (If that seems familiar, that's how all creatures operated under the old system.) You can ignore the ordering.

Let's look at an example. I attack Aaron with Moonglove Winnower, and he blocks with Horned Turtle, Wizened Snitches, and Drudge Skeletons. I order them like that. Now, during the declare blockers step, Aaron has to decide whether or not to activate Drudge Skeletons's regeneration ability. He doesn't know whether I'll assign damage to them, but he knows that I could. Let's say he doesn't. When the combat damage step starts, I can divide Moonglove Winnower's damage however I want among the blockers. Let's say I have the Winnower assign 1 damage to the Snitches and 1 damage to the Skeletons. As soon as combat damage is dealt, Wizened Snitches, Drudge Skeletons, and Moonglove Winnower are all put into the graveyard at the same time.

One last thing. Now that "deathtouch" no longer means "When [this permanent] deals damage to a creature, destroy that creature," Cruel Deceiver and Venomous Fangs will be getting errata to revert to their printed functionalities. The rest of the deathtouch cards were actually printed with the word deathtouch on them, so they'll change over to the new functionality.


And lifelink:
Lifelink


The Reality: The fact that lifelink is a triggered ability leads to situations where the controller of a blocker with lifelink dies from combat damage before lifelink can grant that player enough life to stay alive. Many players get this interaction wrong; the subtle difference in timing is unfortunate.

The Fix: Lifelink, like deathtouch, is turning into a static ability. If a source with lifelink deals damage, its controller gains that much life as that damage is being dealt. This brings the timing much closer to spells like Consume Spirit and Lightning Helix. As a side effect, multiple instances of lifelink are no longer cumulative.


The Details: As with deathtouch, this will incur functionality changes in some cards and errata (actually, un-errata) in others. If a card was printed with the word "lifelink" on it, its functionality will change to the new lifelink. However, a bunch of cards were printed with the ability "Whenever [this permanent] deals damage, you gain that much life" on them and got errata to say "lifelink" a couple of years ago because the two abilities were equivalent. Now that they're not, those cards will be reverted to their original wordings. They'll work as printed ... but they won't have lifelink. Only one card—Loxodon Warhammer—has been printed both ways. Since its most recent printing says "lifelink," it will stick with that and have the new functionality.

In my time as Rules Manager, I've added a few sections to the Comprehensive Rules that I was surprised didn't previously exist. For example, I've added a section called "Life" and one called "Drawing a Card." These sections collect relevant rules that were previously scattered throughout the rulebook, as well as including new rules on the subject. For the Magic 2010 rulebook update, I'll be creating a section on "Damage."

Damage is processed in two steps. There's no timing separation between these steps; one immediately follows the other. They're separated just so prevention and replacement effects can be processed correctly.

Step 1: Damage is dealt. Prevention and replacement effects that care about damage apply here.

Step 2: Damage that's been dealt has its results. Replacement effects that care about those results (like life loss or counters, for example) apply here.

What are the results of damage? The list, updated through Magic 2010, is as follows:

Damage dealt to a player causes that player to lose that much life.
Damage dealt to a planeswalker causes that many loyalty counters to be removed from that planeswalker.
Damage dealt to a creature by a source with wither causes that many -1/-1 counters to be put on that creature.
Damage dealt to a creature by a source without wither causes that much damage to remain on that creature.
Damage dealt to anything by a source with lifelink causes that source's controller to gain that much life, in addition to whatever other results the damage has.
The fourth point is odd, since it doesn't seem to do anything. And, in some sense, it doesn't. It just marks the creature with an invisible tag indicating how much damage it's been dealt. The game keeps checking these tags. If at any time the total amount of damage indicated by these tags meets or exceeds that creature's toughness, the game (not the source of the damage!) destroys it as a state-based effect. If the creature regenerates, those tags are removed. As the turn ends, those tags are also removed.

The fifth point is what's changing about lifelink. Now the life gain is part of the damage event. Let's say you're at 1 life, and you're attacked by a pair of 2/2 creatures. You block one of them with a 3/3 creature with lifelink, but you don't block the other one. As a result of the damage, you'll lose 2 life and you'll gain 3 life at the exact same time (assuming none of the creatures have first strike). You'll wind up at 2 life.

Just like deathtouch, the fact that the new rules care whether a damage source has lifelink leads to notable changes in certain scenarios. Let's run the same example. Say a creature has both lifelink and a damage ability, like a Prodigal Pyromancer equipped with Loxodon Warhammer. If the ability is activated targeting me, but the Pyromancer leaves the battlefield before it resolves, then the game determines the characteristics of the damage source by checking its last existence on the battlefield. If the Warhammer was still equipping the Pyromancer at the time the Pyromancer left, then the source has lifelink (just like the source is red, and the source is a creature). The damage causes me to lose 1 life and the Pyromancer's controller to gain 1 life. (Wither already works like this in similar situations.) Under the old lifelink rules, this wouldn't have happened because lifelink wouldn't be around to trigger.

EDIT: OOOOOPPPSSS, I FORGOT THE COLOR FOR THE WALL OF TEXT...

Source: Magic 2010 Rules Changes


[Edited by shakii23 on 1/Sep/10 at 8:37PM]



Forum Overview >> Combos

©2006-2023 MTGCombos.com