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Easier Anti-Eldrazi

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Date Posted: Tue Aug/10/10 at 6:09 am

Zark-the-Damned
Posts: 523
Joined: 24-Feb-10

Orrery isn't required but allows you to do this at instant speed.

1. Your opponent drops a big Eldrazi
2. Play Journey to Nowhere. When it enters the battlefield, target the Eldrazi with it's triggered ability.
3. In response to the ability, eat your Journey to Nowhere with the Claws of Gix. This causes the 'leaves the battlefield' ability to trigger and do nothing.
4. Goodbye Mr Eldrazi!
Date Posted: Tue Aug/10/10 at 7:40am

Gregorius
Posts: 412
Joined: 01-Aug-10

Why, yes, that is much easier...

...now my combo feels obsolete.
Date Posted: Tue Aug/10/10 at 8:44am

Astro
Posts: 45
Joined: 03-Mar-10

but by eating the journey to nowhere the enchantment would be leaving play...thus the creature would return from exile.  right?
Date Posted: Tue Aug/10/10 at 8:54am

Zark-the-Damned
Posts: 523
Joined: 24-Feb-10

Only if you eat the JTN after the creature is Exiled. If you eat it before this happens, you can 'trick' the stack and exile the creature permanently.
This combo is even better if you have a way of 'bouncing' your JTN back to your so you can do it again later...
Date Posted: Tue Aug/10/10 at 8:58am

Gregorius
Posts: 412
Joined: 01-Aug-10

Actually... no. You can read a long a convoluted reasoning as to why in the replies to my combo, "The Complete Anti-Eldrazi".

...but for a simple explanation, I'll give you this. You play Journey to Nowhere... but before you choose a creature to exile, you find a way to destroy Journey to Nowhere. This effectively gets rid of the second condition on the card - that is, the 'return from exile' part - while the 'to be exiled' part of the card has yet to be resolved. When you choose a creature to exile, it can't be returned since Journey to Nowhere was destroyed before that ability had a chance to activate on anything.

It was complicated when I first heard about it as well... give it time...
Date Posted: Tue Aug/10/10 at 9:34am

Turbine
Posts: 10194
Joined: 26-Oct-09

I need to play this at FNM, but I'm not sure if he will believe me. Can I have the actual rulings that make this work?
Date Posted: Tue Aug/10/10 at 10:10am

gericault5
Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

there isnt a specific rule that says it rather, it is the series of rules that dictiate how a spell/ability resolves that governs it.

see the anti-eldrazi thread so you can spell it out, but any decent judge would let it go, stack manipulation like this has been around for years
Date Posted: Tue Aug/10/10 at 10:19am

psyche
Posts: 1250
Joined: 31-Aug-09

The idea is that the effect to exile the creature is on the stack, but not resolved when you eat the JTN. Then the effect of returning to play triggers. The returning to play resolves, but there is no creature exiled, so it fizzles, then the exile, which was below the return on the stack resolves. When the exile resolves the creature is exiled, and the JTN is already out of play, so the creature is exiled with no way of returning.
Date Posted: Tue Aug/10/10 at 11:13am

Turbine
Posts: 10194
Joined: 26-Oct-09

Hopefully I can explain that to him. What ways are there to sacrifice it in Standard?
Date Posted: Tue Aug/10/10 at 1:06pm

Zark-the-Damned
Posts: 523
Joined: 24-Feb-10

You could try Magmaw
Date Posted: Tue Aug/10/10 at 3:53pm

Astro
Posts: 45
Joined: 03-Mar-10

so when you bring journey to nowhere into play...the first sentence occurs...then before the second sentence actually happens...or before your friend can read the second sentence you destroy journey to nowhere and the creature stays exiled?  am i getting this?  don't both happen at the same time when the card enters play?
Date Posted: Tue Aug/10/10 at 4:29pm

Zark-the-Damned
Posts: 523
Joined: 24-Feb-10

JTN has two triggered abilities on it. They are separate abilities, but they are linked (as per the rules on multiple abilities on one card).

The first ability is: When JTN enters the battlefield, exile target creature.

The second ability is: When JTN leaves the battlefield, return the exiled creature to the battlefield under it's owner's control.

Each of these triggered abilities goes on the stack when it's trigger is met.

Normally, what will happen is this:

1. You play JTN and exile a creature.
2. At some point later in the game, your opponent will destroy JTN and get their creature back.

However, because they are two separate abilities, you can exploit the stack by making JTN leave play BEFORE THE FIRST TRIGGERED ABILITY RESOLVES.

1. You play JTN.
2. When it enters the battlefield, it's first triggered ability goes on the stack and you target a creature.
3. Before the ability resolves, sacrifice JTN to the Claws of Gix. This causes the second triggered ability to go on the stack. The stack now looks like:

c: Return the exiled creature to the battlefield
b: Gain 1 Life (the ability from the Claws)
a: Exile target creature.

4. Because the stack operates on a first-in-last-out basis, you perform the above actions in order, from top to bottom. Assuming nothing else interrupts this, the first thing you will do is return the exiled creature to play. However, at this point in time there isn't a creature to return; it hasn't been exiled yet. The ability does nothing and leaves the stack. You then gain 1 life, then exile the creature you targeted earlier. Because there is no way the same JTN can leave the battlefield again (because if it ever returns to the battlefield it is treated as a new object) the creature will stay exiled.

The key thing to remember is that EVERYTHING USES THE STACK AND CAN BE RESPONDED TO.
Date Posted: Tue Aug/10/10 at 4:49pm

Turbine
Posts: 10194
Joined: 26-Oct-09

I understood that already.
Date Posted: Tue Aug/10/10 at 5:22pm

ParadoxRemix
Posts: 389
Joined: 22-Feb-10

I have a deck that uses this concept. Oblivion Ring, Journey To Nowhere, Faceless Butcher, Tidehollow Sculler, and to go with them, I use Vedalken Mastermind, Into The Roil, Aether Tradewinds and Narrow Escape. For kicks I throw in Reality Acid. I usually make people concede before I kill them.
Date Posted: Tue Aug/10/10 at 5:39pm

Turbine
Posts: 10194
Joined: 26-Oct-09

Nice.
Date Posted: Tue Aug/10/10 at 6:45pm

Pal-of-Lim-Dul
Posts: 1148
Joined: 24-May-10

You want to stop Eldrazi? Play Ensnaring Bridge.
Date Posted: Tue Aug/10/10 at 7:26pm

psyche
Posts: 1250
Joined: 31-Aug-09

Astro. The reason this works is because only one says "when this card enters play". The second ability has a different trigger condition. The cards effect is triggered, not static. Another card that this is used with is goblin pyromancer. If the goblin is sacrificed to another card before the end of turn, then he isn't around to have his end of turn effect go off. Using the stack, and knowing different trigger conditions matters.
Date Posted: Wed Aug/11/10 at 9:40am

Astro
Posts: 45
Joined: 03-Mar-10

That is a dumb rule.
Date Posted: Wed Aug/11/10 at 6:05pm

ParadoxRemix
Posts: 389
Joined: 22-Feb-10

Alot of people believe so, and alot of cards get used in ways I'm sure Wizards never intended because of it. However, things like counterspell would not be possible without it. The stack is a double-edged sword. It lets people have a chance to react to things, and it's indiscriminate to whom it lends this power.
Date Posted: Wed Aug/11/10 at 8:34pm

shakii23
Posts: 5711
Joined: 08-Sep-09

dumb but that's the rule...
Date Posted: Thu Aug/12/10 at 3:18am

Zark-the-Damned
Posts: 523
Joined: 24-Feb-10

It's not dumb. Cards like JTN and Oblivion Ring are worded that way intentionally so people can use the stack tricks.

If they didn't want it to work like that, they would use different wording.

'When Journey to Nowhere enters the battlefield, exile target creature until Journey to Nowhere leaves play'

or something like that.

Due to the rules about duration specific events (i.e. 'gain control of target creature for as long as xxx remains tapped') if the event ends before the ability resolves, it never happens.
Date Posted: Thu Aug/12/10 at 10:29am

Turbine
Posts: 10194
Joined: 26-Oct-09

I love messing with the stack.
Date Posted: Thu Aug/12/10 at 6:54pm

shakii23
Posts: 5711
Joined: 08-Sep-09

I love to watch others do it...




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