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Combo Name: Natual Cycle of Milling Submitted By: SteveK
Card Name
Type
Cost
P/T
Editions (ordered by release)

Fluctuator
 Artifact 2 Urza's Saga, Rare

Cloud of Faeries
 Summon Faeries 1U 1/1 Urza's Legacy, Common

Library of Leng
 Continuous Artifact 1 Beta, Uncommon
Estimated Combo Cost: $4.42
Date Posted: Wed Aug/04/10 at 9:52 pm

SteveK
Posts: 161
Joined: 16-Mar-10

You need Jace's Erasure to finish this combo.

Cycle the card for free. (cycling is discard then draw thus you draw the cycled card. Also any cycling card works.)
Mill 1
Repeat

Used in a high tide deck for turn 3.

Happy Milling
Date Posted: Wed Aug/04/10 at 9:58pm

Turbine
Posts: 10194
Joined: 26-Oct-09




[Edited by Turbine on 5/Aug/10 at 9:28AM]
Date Posted: Wed Aug/04/10 at 10:00pm

SteveK
Posts: 161
Joined: 16-Mar-10

Lol all i do is mill. Right now I am making a credit voucher mill deck since Jace's Erasure was made for me I am sure...

i will post the deck list once im done if you want.
Date Posted: Wed Aug/04/10 at 10:03pm

shakii23
Posts: 5711
Joined: 08-Sep-09

It won't work as we all now, discarding from cycling is a cost and not an effect...
Date Posted: Wed Aug/04/10 at 10:04pm

SteveK
Posts: 161
Joined: 16-Mar-10

Wouldn't it me an ability with a cost? or effect of cycle is to discard and draw?


[Edited by SteveK on 4/Aug/10 at 10:06PM]
Date Posted: Wed Aug/04/10 at 10:08pm

shakii23
Posts: 5711
Joined: 08-Sep-09

Play cost to cycle, Discard a card: Draw a card
That's cycling...
everything before the : is a cost... everything beyond the : is the effect...
effects of spells/abilities such as Ravenous rats, Library of leng triggers...
Date Posted: Wed Aug/04/10 at 10:08pm

SteveK
Posts: 161
Joined: 16-Mar-10

502.18. Cycling
  • 502.18a Cycling is an activated ability that functions
    only while the card with cycling is in a player’s hand. “Cycling [cost]”
    means “[Cost], Discard this card: Draw a card.”
Library of Leng

You have no maximum hand size limit. If a spell or ability forces you to
discard a card, you may put a card on top of your library instead.

Would it not work?

So would not triggering Cycle then trigger library since it does effect the card in your hand?


[Edited by SteveK on 4/Aug/10 at 10:19PM]
Date Posted: Wed Aug/04/10 at 10:16pm

shakii23
Posts: 5711
Joined: 08-Sep-09

The thing that you forgot about activated abilities is that:
From the Comprehensive Rules: (February 1, 2009)
403. Activated Abilities
403.1. An activated ability is written as “[cost]: [effect].” The activation cost is everything before the colon (:). An ability’s activation cost must be paid by the player who is playing it.
403.2. Only an object’s controller (or its owner, if it doesn’t have a controller) can play its activated ability unless the object specifically says otherwise.
403.3. If an activated ability has a restriction on its use (for example, “Play this ability only once each turn”), the restriction continues to apply to that object even if its controller changes.
403.4. A creature's activated ability with the tap symbol (}) or the untap symbol () in its activation cost can't be played unless the creature has been under its controller's control since the start of his or her most recent turn. Ignore this rule for creatures with haste (see Rule 502.5).
'403.4a' If an object acquires an activated ability with a restriction on its use from another object, that restriction applies only to that ability as acquired from that object. It doesn’t apply to other, identically worded abilities.
403.5. Activated abilities that read “Play this ability only any time you could play a sorcery” mean the player must follow the timing rules for playing a sorcery, though the ability isn’t actually a sorcery. Activated abilities that read “Play this ability only any time you could play an instant” mean the player must follow the timing rules for playing an instant, though the ability isn’t actually an instant.
Date Posted: Wed Aug/04/10 at 10:18pm

shakii23
Posts: 5711
Joined: 08-Sep-09

Let me point it out in a different way...
This is the card ruling of Library of Leng:
10/4/2004 This effect has no effect on the cards being put into the graveyard from a library, because they are not "discarded".
10/4/2004 You can't use the Library of Leng ability to place a discarded card on top of your library when you discard a card as a cost, because costs aren't effects.
10/4/2004 The discard triggers anything else that triggers on discards.
10/4/2004 You can look at a randomly discarded card before deciding where it goes.
10/4/2004 The ability applies any time a spell or ability has you discard as part of its effect. It does not matter if you or your opponent control the spell or ability. The discard is forced because it is an effect.
10/4/2004 If more than one card is discarded due to a single effect, the Library allows you to decide whether or not to use it on each of the cards. You get to decide the order the cards are placed on the library if more than one goes there.
10/4/2004 Since the card goes directly to the library, the card is not revealed unless the spell or ability requiring the discard specifically says it is.
10/4/2004 The ability replaces the normal discard action with a discard action that puts the card on the library instead of the graveyard.
10/1/2009 If multiple effects modify your hand size, apply them in timestamp order. For example, if you put Null Profusion (an enchantment that says your maximum hand size is two) onto the battlefield and then put Library of Leng onto the battlefield, you'll have no maximum hand size. However, if those permanents entered the battlefield in the opposite order, your maximum hand size would be two.
Date Posted: Wed Aug/04/10 at 10:24pm

shakii23
Posts: 5711
Joined: 08-Sep-09

Now I'll get the two rulings that makes this combo null...

From the card ruling:
10/4/2004 You can't use the Library of Leng ability to place a discarded card on top of your library when you discard a card as a cost, because costs aren't effects.

From the Comprehensive rules:

403.1. An activated ability is written as “[cost]: [effect].” The activation cost is everything before the colon (:). An ability’s activation cost must be paid by the player who is playing it.
Date Posted: Wed Aug/04/10 at 10:25pm

gericault5
Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

as shakii said it would not work with the library, since the discard is a cost, however if you add white you can use Wheel of sun and moon to cycle your library over and over again.
Date Posted: Wed Aug/04/10 at 10:28pm

shakii23
Posts: 5711
Joined: 08-Sep-09

Or is that still unclear?

From the card ruling:
10/4/2004 You can't use the Library of Leng ability to place a discarded card on top of your library when you discard a card as a cost, because costs aren't effects.

From the Comprehensive rules:

403.1. An activated ability is written as “[cost]: [effect].” The activation cost is everything before the colon (:). An ability’s activation cost must be paid by the player who is playing it.


Rule text of Cycling

Cycling 2 (2, Discard this card: Draw a card.)


Note: the orange text here is the cost of cycling the card and the purple text is the effect. For the Library of leng to trigger the discard a card must be in the effect side and not on the cost side of the activated ability...

I hope this is clear because i don't know how to explain it further than this...


[Edited by shakii23 on 4/Aug/10 at 10:35PM]
Date Posted: Wed Aug/04/10 at 10:34pm

shakii23
Posts: 5711
Joined: 08-Sep-09

Now there is an idea... good job Gericault...
Date Posted: Thu Aug/05/10 at 9:23am

Pal-of-Lim-Dul
Posts: 1148
Joined: 24-May-10

Nice coloring Shakii :)  I propose your next comment should have a different color for each letter :)
Date Posted: Thu Aug/05/10 at 9:28am

Turbine
Posts: 10194
Joined: 26-Oct-09

It's like a rainbow. . .
Date Posted: Thu Aug/05/10 at 1:23pm

ParadoxRemix
Posts: 389
Joined: 22-Feb-10

I'd rather stick with my original Fluctuator combo... every cycling creature I could find and then Living Death :)
Date Posted: Thu Aug/05/10 at 2:22pm

Turbine
Posts: 10194
Joined: 26-Oct-09

Nice!
Date Posted: Thu Aug/05/10 at 6:49pm

shakii23
Posts: 5711
Joined: 08-Sep-09

I know... it's a turn 1 win with lotus petal/Two dark ritual... or turn 2 win with just 1 dark ritual...
Date Posted: Thu Aug/05/10 at 6:57pm

shakii23
Posts: 5711
Joined: 08-Sep-09

It took me 30 minutes to post that one using HTML codes and searching for rulings then my next post you want me to do this:

Hello World!!!
Date Posted: Thu Aug/05/10 at 7:02pm

ParadoxRemix
Posts: 389
Joined: 22-Feb-10








 Try using ...  Jace's Erasure
 with Library of Leng  and Psychic Vortex
Date Posted: Thu Aug/05/10 at 10:21pm

shakii23
Posts: 5711
Joined: 08-Sep-09

fluctuator deck with Jace's Erasure, i think that's enough already...
Date Posted: Fri Aug/06/10 at 9:40am

ParadoxRemix
Posts: 389
Joined: 22-Feb-10

It's actually not at all. You're going to end up milling yourself just as fast if not faster than them.
Date Posted: Fri Aug/06/10 at 9:46am

Turbine
Posts: 10194
Joined: 26-Oct-09

I really doubt that you would die before him. You could always Traumatize to pull yourself ahead.
Date Posted: Fri Aug/06/10 at 4:52pm

Akinas86
Posts: 327
Joined: 16-Jun-10

regardless, the reason that this DOES work is that, on the cloud of faeries card, it says that the cycling is played as an instant, thereby triggering the effect of library of leng.
Date Posted: Fri Aug/06/10 at 9:36pm

gericault5
Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

yes cycling can be done as an instant, however, as shakii took the time to write above, the discard for the cycling is the cost to play that abiliity, and  since the library only triggers from discards caused by effects (such as a resolved blightning) it dosn't trigger to the cost
Date Posted: Fri Aug/06/10 at 9:48pm

ParadoxRemix
Posts: 389
Joined: 22-Feb-10

Which is why relying simply on an Erasure is not going to work. If you're stocking your deck full of cycling cards to use with a Fluctuator, the Fluctuators themselves, some Libraries that do nothing, and presumably some land, how much room do you even have for other cards to make the cycling/Fluctuators even remotely useful? Not much. Library doesn't work with cycling. Fluctuator and Jace's Erasure both do. Use cards like Psychic Vortex to capitalize on this.
Date Posted: Fri Aug/06/10 at 10:09pm

Turbine
Posts: 10194
Joined: 26-Oct-09

I saw a fail mill deck today. No Archive Traps, Traumatizes, or any rares except for Platinum Angel. The best mill card he had was Hedron Crab.
Date Posted: Sat Aug/07/10 at 2:08am

fakepinata
Posts: 183
Joined: 26-Jun-10

pft. merfolk. stonybrook school master. intruder alarm. drowner of secrets.
Date Posted: Sat Aug/07/10 at 3:30am

Whiplash732
Posts: 38
Joined: 02-Aug-10

i hope your not talkin about my mill deck... cuz that would be f*cked up.
Date Posted: Sun Aug/08/10 at 6:15pm

Turbine
Posts: 10194
Joined: 26-Oct-09

Do you play 1 Platinum Angel.
Date Posted: Sun Aug/08/10 at 7:35pm

shakii23
Posts: 5711
Joined: 08-Sep-09

Platinum huh? For what? Mill decks have platinum angel?
Date Posted: Sun Aug/08/10 at 7:36pm

Turbine
Posts: 10194
Joined: 26-Oct-09

He just randomly put in one. Probably because it was the only good card he has.
Date Posted: Mon Aug/09/10 at 4:47am

shakii23
Posts: 5711
Joined: 08-Sep-09

LOL... Hedron crab gave me another idea for a deck... extended...



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