Not infinite, but EPIC WIN

Might as well include Parallax Nexus as well, then use Ertai, The Corrupted on along with the claws.

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Date Posted: Fri May/21/10 at 7:08am

psyche

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Gilder Bairn. just keep doubling the number of counters. They loose everyting.

Date Posted: Fri May/21/10 at 7:29am

Turbine

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How does this work?

Date Posted: Fri May/21/10 at 8:37am

Voal

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@Paradox Remix:
Parallax nexus doesn't work, because you can only activate as a sorcery.

Date Posted: Fri May/21/10 at 9:17am

wurtnik

Posts: 342
Joined: 08-May-10

surely they still get their permanents back when the Parallax you use leaves play.

It doesnt matter if it was saced or the fading counters were taken off.

Date Posted: Fri May/21/10 at 11:14am

DuffCapers

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Joined: 20-May-10

I agree with wurtnik - it says right on both parallax's that when they leave play all cards removed with them come back. They lose nothing permanently.

Duffy

[Edited by DuffCapers on 21/May/10 at 11:14AM]

Date Posted: Fri May/21/10 at 3:27pm

I strongly disagree with the ruling, but as current tournament
standards go, if the first part of an ability is activated, let's say
we have an enchantment card that says:

"Exile target permanent.

When this leaves play, return that permanent to play."

According to the rules, because this is a two part ability, they are
sequential and you can have one activate and have the second one be
interrupted by a spell or ability that removes the card before the
trigger can take place. This is of course splitting as many hairs as
the older ruling on combat damage.

Before the 2010 rules, you could have a 2/2 block another 2/2, unsummon
your creature after damage is on the stack and their creature would
die, and yours would be back in your hand safe and sound. Complete
garbage, and because enough people complained about it, they changed
the rules. If enough people complain about this trigger nonsense, it
will change for the better too.

The combo mentioned in this thread doesn't work because even with splitting hairs with the triggers, the
first ability isn't a trigger ability, it's an activated.

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Date Posted: Fri May/21/10 at 5:11pm

K, let's try to make some sense of this.

First off, Voal's right about my suggestion, sortof. You could technically get 1 card from them, but it's hardly worth the resources to do so.

Second, abilities have the same 'speed' regardless of wether they're triggered or activated.

Third, this combo works as such: you have either Parallax card in play along with the Claws or any other form of sacrifice. Then you activate the abiltiy to exile whichever cards you're exiling. When you do this, you choose to retain priority, and repeat the process until all counters have been removed and all corresponding abilties are still on the stack. Then, you sacrifice the enchantment.

Since the first thing that happens is that the enchantment dies, the number of exiled cards returned to them will be 0, since none of them have been exiled yet. After that resolves, the exiling abilities will resolve, permanently exiling the cards with no chance for return.

As I stated earlier, you could technically use the nexus to get 1 card from them as the ability can't be activated in responce to itself, but it's hardly worth the time, mana, cards, etc.

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Date Posted: Sat May/22/10 at 1:21am

It's garbage, and I am positive the rules will change in the coming years to reflect this. A card's text should resolve as one piece and then have the chance to be interrupted afterwards, this ruling seems like some sort of childish cherry-picking of words.

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Date Posted: Sat May/22/10 at 1:22am

Especially considering those cards were printed in a time that that "trigger splitting" function wasn't abused.

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Date Posted: Sat May/22/10 at 1:24am

"As I stated earlier, you could technically use the nexus to get 1 card
from them as the ability can't be activated in responce to itself,"

Why not? What in the rules argues this?

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Date Posted: Sat May/22/10 at 1:39am

gericault5

Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

Why not? What in the rules argues this?

The rules that govern when a sorcery can be played. Ie. the stack must be empty

Also while you are postive the rules will change to prevent this, I'm postive they won't. This combo is simple utilizing the way the stack works to your advantage, to change this would be to change the very game itself, at most you will see less cards that offer that opportunity, which has already started as tidehollow sculler is the only one I can think of in the last couple of sets that offers that level of manuplation.

[Edited by gericault5 on 22/May/10 at 1:39AM]

Date Posted: Sat May/22/10 at 2:51pm

Aye, if you're waiting for the rules to change to not allow things like this, you're going to be waiting along time. The stack is the core of MTG's gameplay. Without it, the game would be utter chaos.

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Date Posted: Sun May/23/10 at 10:25pm

@gericault5

The rules that govern when sorceries can be played? I'm calling shenanigans on that one. We're talking about an ability that can be played at any time. And supposing you can use an ability - instantaneously - to literally interrupt the reading of a card's auxiliary abilities (triggers and activated effects alike) what is stopping you from using the same ability to interrupt the resolution of an effect on the stack? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. So under that line of reasoning, you could use that activated ability as many times as you'd like and nothing would be for worse. --- Or, you wait until the ability resolves and then you continue the same process.

@ParadoxRemix

I'm not saying we should get rid of the stack, far from. We should reform the stack, much in the same way we did in the 2010 rules. Instead of being able to interrupt the reading of a card, every ability should be able to register and then begin to resolve. So instead of being able to sacrifice the card before the second trigger takes place, it should be able to identify that it is leaving play and therefore trigger. You can write pieces of code that understand this logic, it's not that hard to fix.

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Date Posted: Sun May/23/10 at 10:56pm

You just gave me a nice idea...

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Date Posted: Sun May/23/10 at 11:24pm

gericault5

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Joined: 13-Oct-09

@gericault5

The rules that govern when sorceries can be played? I'm calling shenanigans on that one. We're talking about an ability that can be played at any time. And supposing you can use an ability - instantaneously - to literally interrupt the reading of a card's auxiliary abilities (triggers and activated effects alike) what is stopping you from using the same ability to interrupt the resolution of an effect on the stack? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. So under that line of reasoning, you could use that activated ability as many times as you'd like and nothing would be for worse. ---

Yes most abilitys can be played at any time-instantaneously. however, nexus has a clause that states the ability can only be played when you can play a sorcery (see card), and the only time a sorcery can be played is during one of the main phases when the stack is empty hence my response. scepter of fugue is another card that works this way

Parallax Nexus

Or, you wait until the ability resolves and then you continue the same process

the way things are removed from game is the ability that returns them resolves before the ability that removed the objects resolves. if you wait until the remove abilitys resolve when you trigger the leaves play the things removed will come back

So instead of being able to sacrifice the card before the second trigger takes place, it should be able to identify that it is leaving play and therefore trigger.

It does identify it as leaving play, which is why it triggers, the problem is the other abilitys haven't resolved yet.

Date Posted: Mon May/24/10 at 3:58am

Is there a Parallax for green or Red?

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Date Posted: Mon May/24/10 at 4:33am

@ Eph

What you're talking about would make the game far more difficult to follow. Abilities are separated for a reason. With the kind of cards you're referring to, every card would have as much text on it as the oracle for Animate Dead, and no one would play the game in the first place. The Parallax cards have 2 abilties, just like Faceless Butcher, just like Oblivion Ring, just like many other cards that have existed for a long time. If they were going to change how it worked by now, they would've. And don't even compare changing the stack to what they did in M10. The only thing they changed was how people could exploit the combat damage/stack system in literally millions of ways, and reworded 2 abilties. Sure it affected the game, but in a good way. I'd hate to see what would become of MTG if people like you were in charge of it.

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Date Posted: Mon May/24/10 at 6:26am

.

[Edited by Ephemerance on 24/May/10 at 7:07AM]

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Date Posted: Mon May/24/10 at 7:05am

On closer examination of the comprehensive rules for the stack, namely 405.1-5, I'm starting to see where this mess is coming from. So first you have the card in play (successfully cast, just passively sitting on the field), and then you activate the ability. It goes on the stack.

You sac the enchantment with hand of gix - that goes on the stack. In response, the "leaves play" clause triggers - and that goes on the stack.

So you end up with a sandwich of:

1) When this leaves play, return that
2) That leaves play
3) Target opponent removes a card via the card that is no longer in play.

They resolve in order and that's where it gets messy. If anyone remembers how the old combat damage mess used to go, it was very similar.
After blockers are declared, damage is on the stack, and unsummon has been cast, this happens:

1) Creature A is returned to your hand
2) Creature B receives combat damage via the card that is no longer in play.

They changed the rules on how combat damage is dealt with, so why not change how abilities on the stack are dealt with? What if when a card is removed, all effects from that card are removed/countered from the stack as well? How would that effect the game? For the better, for the worse? I'd like to see change.

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Date Posted: Mon May/24/10 at 7:40am

Zark-the-Damned

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It's not messy at all. The stack operates on a first in last out principle.

Besides, your example is wrong. If you remove a card, then in response sacrifice the Nexus to Claws, the stack will look like:

3: Return all cards (i.e. none)
2: Gain Life (from the claws)
1: Remove a card from their hand

The Nexus going to the graveyard happens immediately because saccing it is a cost.

I doubt WOTC will ever change the stack in the way you are describing, it takes too much away from the game.

Date Posted: Mon May/24/10 at 5:45pm

They've stated many times why they haven't changed it yet, and most likely never will. The way they desribed it was...

Casting a spell or using an ability and then having someone do something in response is similar to the first person throwing a grenade at the second person and while it's in the air the second person shooting the first person. Sure the first person is dead, but the grenade is still coming at the second person.

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Date Posted: Mon May/24/10 at 7:37pm

Removing or even changing the stack will greatly decrease the playability and excitement you get from MtG... Take Pokemon for example, everything is a sorcery and it is not that much exciting as MtG...

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Date Posted: Tue May/25/10 at 12:28am

gericault5

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Joined: 13-Oct-09

I agree there are some things that don't make sense in the game, I personally don;t think I'll every understand how I don;t do damage to you when nothings in my way (a blocker unsummoned), but the stack won;t be that thing, as mentioned it is what seperates magic from other card games. and no offense but what you areproposing will be a major overhaul to the game, it doesn't effect just cards like the parallex, oring, or some of the nightmares. it will affect everything with a sac ability, like mogg fanatic, children of korlis, terramorphic expanse, what about goes to grave abilitys would they trigger since the permanent is not in play. differant rules would have to be set up for differant circumstances which would get confusing. and part of the m10 rules change was to make the game less confusing.

though I have to say if your change did happen i would have won my last game on sun.

Date Posted: Tue May/25/10 at 2:42am

If the game changes like that... I would have won more games than my friend...

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Date Posted: Tue May/25/10 at 4:29am

with the whole removing the blocker thing... I think it's like, all the creatures run at the opponent, some of them have to stop halfway there to fight, then regardless of wether or not they stopped, they all swing at the same time?

Lol, but seriously. It's because once a creature is considered 'blocked', being able to consider that same creature 'unblocked' in the same turn would cause some serious problems. A handful of people would find a way to exploit this, and Wizards would yet again have a rule overhaul to do.

"blocked' and 'unblocked' ... it's kinda like a paradox huh?

:P

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Date Posted: Tue May/25/10 at 12:34pm

lin sivvi

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Fading is not vanishing, even if a permenant has no fade counters on it, it stays until your upkeep's begining.

Date Posted: Tue May/25/10 at 12:38pm

lin sivvi

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whoah, that is irrelivant, nevermind

Date Posted: Tue May/25/10 at 12:41pm

lin sivvi

Posts: 1608
Joined: 14-Jan-10

They aren't talking about the asign blockers, then bounce one back to your hand. they are talking about having you creature deal damage, but not let it resolve, then bounce it.

Date Posted: Tue May/25/10 at 3:41pm