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Title: Laboratory Maniac + Cascade
Date Posted: Wed Jun/26/13 at 7:17pm

Boyachi
Posts: 1553
Joined: 02-Nov-11

I feel like there is a way to abuse the cascade mechanic (in general, not a specific card with cascade) to trigger a win condition from Laboratory Maniac.

The notion is that there are some spells with Cascade that cost 3 cmc. If one builds a deck where each spell card has a cmc of at least 3, a single spell with cascade will remove (albeit temporarily) the entire library.

Any ideas?
Date Posted: Thu Jun/27/13 at 2:01am

ValdezMarshall
Posts: 46
Joined: 05-May-13

There are a lot of Cascade cards, and most all have CMC over 3. Problem is that for it to trigger the way you are describing you would have to get to a MASSSIVE CMC spell to trickle down the CMC chain to 3. And on top of that, they would have to all be in order on top of your deck. That would also mean that you couldnt have ANY lands, and any other spells without Cascade. Cascade is fun though, Alara was bomb. What is it you are ultimately going for with the idea?
Date Posted: Thu Jun/27/13 at 7:06am

Boyachi
Posts: 1553
Joined: 02-Nov-11

I was looking at the fact that it exiles the cards from the game (hence also your library) as it searches for a card to be cast, hence if there is no target, at one point the entire library will have vanished, yet as the ability finishes, it quickly comes back. In that scant time I was wondering if there was some way to boost the effect of the cascade ability to trigger Laboratory Maniac WHILE cascade was at the end of the library.
Date Posted: Thu Jun/27/13 at 8:15am

GoodGuyTyler
Posts: 202
Joined: 14-Mar-12

Valdez, Cascade doesn't hit lands, so he could easily run a deck that has only cards with a CMC of at least 3. In fact, that's an actual deck - Hypergenesis Cascade.

Boyachi, I don't think there's a way to do that. Even if you had a way to draw a card at instant speed, the Cascade ability wouldn't have finished resolving yet so the card draw would just be put on the stack. It wouldn't be able to resolve in between parts of an ability. If you could, that would be pretty bomb though lol.
Date Posted: Thu Jun/27/13 at 8:52am

gericault5
Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

Good guy has it right-A spell or ability can't resolve while another is resolving.
Exiling cards, casting one, and returning exiled cards to bottom of library are all part of the cascades resolution.  ie everything is back in the library before you can cast/activate something to cause you to draw
Date Posted: Thu Jun/27/13 at 2:06pm

Atogatog
Posts: 125
Joined: 20-Apr-11

ok so you can't time the draw for while you have cascaded your library from the game but is there a way to trick your cascaded cards in to not finding your library when they don't find something else to cast?
Date Posted: Thu Jun/27/13 at 8:22pm

gericault5
Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

They will always "find" your library, but not necessarily a card to cast.  If you use a 3 mana cascade card and don't have anything less than 3 it will exile your entire library since it can't cast anything.  However, once everything is exiled it will all go back into your library in a random order. 
Date Posted: Fri Jun/28/13 at 6:48am

ValdezMarshall
Posts: 46
Joined: 05-May-13

The only way for it to happen as you wish is to use anything that lets you put cards on the bottom of your library in certain orders. IF by chance you had a Cascade spell and IF by chance there were no spells that costs less inbetween the one you cast and the one you put on bottom, you could theoretically exile all the way down to your last card and then cast it as part of the Cascade ability, since the card is being played, at that time players have Priority to cast spells and abilities in response to the spell on the stack. I suppose it could be done, but far from a likely senario.
Date Posted: Fri Jun/28/13 at 2:53pm

terakhan
Posts: 636
Joined: 24-Mar-13

The cascade is still going even once the hit spell is put on the stack. Its not done, and therefore no one can do anything in response, until the last part of putting the exiled cards back is finished. Only once that part is done, does the revealed spell even get a chance to resolve, or players to respond. So no matter how clever your cascade trick is, you will always end with everything you had in your library still there, minus maybe one card that the cascade let you cast.

The closest to what you are shooting for would be to run a single copy of Mirror-Mad Phantasm (or whatever its called), and some cheap/quick copy token makers. Copy the spirit, use an effect that would cause a draw and activate the token's ability in response. It takes out your whole deck, then you draw from an empty deck and win. That or some shenanigans with Leveler.

You could also go dimir colors and use Demonic Consultation, naming a card you dont even have in your deck. It will exile your whole library for a single black mana, that way.


[Edited by terakhan on 28/Jun/13 at 2:57PM]
Date Posted: Fri Jun/28/13 at 5:28pm

ValdezMarshall
Posts: 46
Joined: 05-May-13

 Actually, no. The chance of it happening is so slim but there IS an absolute minute chance to make it happen. The way Cascade works is this;  I cast Bloodbraid Elf for 4cmc, and when that spell is put onto the stack the Cascade ability is triggered and goes on the stack ON TOP of Bloodbraid Elf. Players have priority to cast instants and abilities in response, if all players pass then I begin exiling my library. The first NON-land card with cmc 3 or less is where it stops. If I choose to cast the card, it goes ON TOP of the stack above the Bloodbraid Elf and resolving before as well, meaning it comes into play before the Elf. After, and only after, I cast the 3cmc or less card and after it resolves, then the exiled cards are shuffled and put at the bottom of my library, before the Elf resolves from the stack.

 Now, IF by random chance I have in play Maniac, any card draw engine or instant, and I cast Enigma Sphinx for 7 and Cascade into a 6 drop, and IF I happen to have NO cards in my deck that cost 6 or less other than the veeery last card, I can exile the entire library and choose to cast the last card exiled since it was a 1drop Dark Ritual (hahah still love that card), as the Dark Ritual is on the stack ABOVE the Sphinx, all players have a chance to respond, INCLUDING MYSELF, and I activate my Chromatic Sphere to add 1 mana and draw a card, that ability is then stacked ontop of the Dark Ritual, meaning as long as nobdy removes the Maniac from play right then and there, you win as Chromatic Sphere resolves because the library is not replaced until the Cascaded card, not the card WITH Cascade, resolves..

Sounds waaay too far fetched to be built around but MAYBE as a type of random backup if you could keepit to a simple 2 or 3 cards that are also useful to your deck in other ways as well.
Date Posted: Fri Jun/28/13 at 9:52pm

gericault5
Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

No it is not possible @Valdez-you are not correct about your description of how Cascade works.As I mentioned above, nothing resolves while something else is resolving.  As part of Cascades resolution you are able to cast a spell, that spell will then go on the stack, however, it will not resolve until cascade finishes resolving, that is the cards are put back on the library.  The reason for this is because no player has priority during a spells or abilities resolution, as defined by rule 116.2e116.2e Resolving spells and abilities may
instruct players to make choices or take actions, or may allow players to
activate mana abilities. Even if a player is doing so, no player has priority
while a spell or ability is resolving Here is how cascade actually works using your example,I cast Bloodbraid Elf for 4cmc, and when that spell is put onto the stack the Cascade ability is triggered and goes on the stack ON TOP of Bloodbraid Elf. Players have priority to cast instants and abilities in response, if all players pass then I begin exiling my library. The first NON-land card with cmc 3 (dark rit) or less is where it stops. If I choose to cast the card, it goes ON TOP of the stack above the Bloodbraid Elf , the exiled cards are than returned to the bottom of the library in a random order, priority than goes to each player and if everyone passes dark rit resolves, priority goes through each player again, and if everyone passes bloodbraid resolves
Date Posted: Sat Jun/29/13 at 2:34pm

ValdezMarshall
Posts: 46
Joined: 05-May-13

Whoa Whoa Whoa calm down with the digital yelling bro haha excuse me, you are correct. I missed ONE word what had my conception of it off. The only part that I had wrong was the part of the rules that say "when you are done CASTING the last card exiled". I was reading through too fast and for some reason was thinking after the spell resolves the library is replaced...  I was not talking about doing anything in the middle of resolution as I know there is nothing anybody can do, I was referring to RESPONDING to the last card cast from exile, but at the time it is effectively put on the stack is when the library is replaced so you are correct. Sorry man. I havent used Cascade much the last couple years, other than my Maelstom Nexus in my EDH but I have yet to ever get it in play and use it hahah games never last that long.