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Title: JMDin83 and I are in a conflict...
Date Posted: Wed Apr/07/10 at 4:12am

shakii23
Posts: 5711
Joined: 08-Sep-09

Since JMDin83 and I are discussing in his combo post Death's Vale, about the two ways to do this combo... We need your opinion on this one... Which is better?

a.) Lotus Vale + Umbral Mantle + Any Zendikon
or
b.) Any land that can produce mana + Overgrowth / Dawn's Reflection + Umbral Mantle + Any Zendikon (preferably green to make it mono green). Lets call this one Death's Land (sorry for the slightly copied name).


Death's Vale

Advantages (my opinion only):
1. Less card (3 cards total compared to 4 cards with my way) which means it is much easier to collect the pieces of the combo...
2. Lower cost (mana related not other cost like the draw back of Lotus Vale)

Disadvantages:
1. Drawback of Lotus Vale (which I think is the heaviest drawback that a land requires to be able to stay in play well except for the cumulative upkeep if you know what i mean...
2. Easy to counter and believe me it will be countered. (well, both of the combos are easy to counter but the Death's Vale combo is well heart-breaking when countered. You will lose to lands + the Zendikon). Ouch! This is the point I'm trying to explain to JMDin83. When this combo becomes counter, you will have a hard time recovering from the two lands lost and the Vale. This may also most of the time decide a game...

Death's Land

Advantages:
1. There are other alternatives to this one... Many lands to choose from not only the Vale.. This might also actually reduce the cards required to pull off the combo (using man lands especially Mishra's Factory/the changeling one, I forgot the name.)
2. Less draw back.

Disadvantage(s):
1. Harder to pull of because of the cards required but the problem can be resolved with man lands...





[Edited by shakii23 on 7/Apr/10 at 4:16AM]
Date Posted: Wed Apr/07/10 at 9:46am

Twogunkid
Posts: 2610
Joined: 22-Jan-10

Depends on what you want to do but zendikon basic land two fertile grounds umbral mantle ks what I would go with
Date Posted: Wed Apr/07/10 at 6:45pm

gericault5
Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

Based on the posted combos, while they both do the same thing and take the same amount of cards (using dryad arbor, or another man-land) I prefer the Death's vale, mainly because it offers greater flexibility in its use, it can go in a mono-black deck, a RU deck, a WGR, etc... so while I have the option to play green I am not bound by it.

When comparing combos, I think that the flexibilty of a combo outweighs the disadvantages assocaited with it. especially without seeing its relation to the rest of the deck its in, for example while the vale causes you to sac two lands, have cards in the deck that benifit from lands in the grave(knight of the requilery or any creature with threshold for example) or add the crucible and some landfall.  As a result  your disadvantage has just become a strength. 
Date Posted: Wed Apr/07/10 at 7:06pm

shakii23
Posts: 5711
Joined: 08-Sep-09

Well yeah your disadvantage becomes a strength in that part but it is still a disadvantage especially against control... That strength will become a weakness again... Well, 1 boomerang should do it... Or 1 capsize with buyback... or one strip mine.. Stone rain.. Wasteland.. Dustbowl.. Avalanche Riders.. Even crack the earth will hurt you... Well, i'm talking about the 2 land lost here not the you can just play the land again part...


[Edited by shakii23 on 7/Apr/10 at 7:07PM]
Date Posted: Wed Apr/07/10 at 7:20pm

lin sivvi
Posts: 1608
Joined: 14-Jan-10

Although, yes you do bring up a good point with the land destruction. the overall usefulness of lotus vale makes it better.  Lotus vale completely sets you for colored cards, extremely useful in a multi-colored deck, where as your other combo is kind of resticting being mono-green (really though, the ability to put that in any color deck YES) anyway, variety is good, and well Death's vale allows for more of that.
Date Posted: Wed Apr/07/10 at 7:26pm

shakii23
Posts: 5711
Joined: 08-Sep-09

Well, you might be right about that... but still i think the drawback is too heavy... But let's just stop this argument and call it a draw and the two combos as equally useful combos...
Date Posted: Wed Apr/07/10 at 8:12pm

gericault5
Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

but you can't base a combo on how will it play out againest a certain deck type or what your opponent might play. and if you are considering that, then you need to consider a decent deck builder would take into account the disadvantage, so they are ready to deal with it.  for example I have a red/black deck that i can put death vale in.  That deck tops off at 4cmc and there is only 4 cards that costs that much.   So if i have to wait 1 extra turn and have 5 lands out and then lose 2 of them and then lose the vale, who cares, I can still play 95% of my deck.
Date Posted: Wed Apr/07/10 at 8:16pm

gericault5
Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

Sorry didn't see your draw comment until after i was done writting
Date Posted: Wed Apr/07/10 at 9:10pm

JMDin83
Posts: 880
Joined: 30-Jul-09

and while yes, youre right about the possible threats out there vs my Death Vale combo, i play Legacy PTQs and largescale fierce tournaments regularly (just went to the Star City Games legacy 5k a few weeks ago for example)  and most of the cards you named will never see the light of day in a real tournament situation, as most of them are considered too expensive (CMC wise of course).  and in casual games most of my friends and i tend to stay away from most of those cards as, even though they are useful, we have much meaner, and more imaginative decks we like to use, and those cards are really just meh. lol

The reason i prefer to say that the Deaths Vale combo is better, is because as someone pointed out, it can slip into any deck.   and while you COULD keep your combo mono green with the green zendikon, remember that THAT beastie costs 5 mana, and in any kind of truly competitive situation, its already too late.

So im not saying that your combo is stupid or worthless or anything like that, its just less useful/flexible than the one i posted as it requires more to get to.  after all, if im using it in my blue deck (which i am hehe) i have PLENTY of deck manipulation and answers to threats :)  but we can go ahead and call it a draw...with me slightly in the lead :-P
Date Posted: Wed Apr/07/10 at 9:26pm

shakii23
Posts: 5711
Joined: 08-Sep-09

Well, i will not really use the green zendikon... that is why i'm using mishra's factory... Well, it might even be faster using green if you ask me... Well, it's your opinion... I'm just explaining my point...
Date Posted: Wed Apr/07/10 at 9:28pm

JMDin83
Posts: 880
Joined: 30-Jul-09

yah, its cool :)  check your peace offering post hehe
Date Posted: Wed Apr/07/10 at 9:52pm

shakii23
Posts: 5711
Joined: 08-Sep-09

Yeah Peace!