Title: 2 cards that make Tarmogoyf truly weak

Date Posted: Wed Sep/26/12 at 7:03pm

Nickosis

Posts: 154
Joined: 31-Mar-12

Now you may say I'm "Trolling" here but here are 2 two drops that are MUCH better than Tarmogoyf: Scavenging Ooze (Commander) and Lotleth Troll (RtR). My opinion of course but still my opinion.

Date Posted: Wed Sep/26/12 at 7:16pm

spawnmaster

Posts: 35
Joined: 22-Sep-12

go lotleth troll!!!!

Date Posted: Thu Sep/27/12 at 9:28am

Nickosis

Posts: 154
Joined: 31-Mar-12

Yes Lotleth is amazing...such a great card. I see that in play turn 2 and at end of opponents discarding 4 slitherheads, then your turn scavenge, then swing for 10 turn 3...I've never really thought Tarmogoyf was that good either.

Date Posted: Thu Sep/27/12 at 9:55am

lin sivvi

Posts: 1608
Joined: 14-Jan-10

Tarmogoyf are good because as you start to get the types in the graveyard you can start pumping out more Tarmogoyfs and they all benefit from the filled grave. The ones you listed function very differently.

Date Posted: Thu Sep/27/12 at 10:16am

lin sivvi

Posts: 1608
Joined: 14-Jan-10

Also, discarding Karn, silver golem and a snow covered land makes Tarmogoyf a 6/7. . . Artifact, Basic, Creature, Land, Legendary, and Snow.

Date Posted: Thu Sep/27/12 at 10:19am

lin sivvi

Posts: 1608
Joined: 14-Jan-10

Nevermind, I guess tribal isn't actually a super-type . . . but a card type . . ?

Date Posted: Thu Sep/27/12 at 11:33am

TheCaptain

Posts: 909
Joined: 13-Apr-11

Most of those decks (that I've seen) who run Tarmogoyf) run fetchlands, cantrips (ponder, etc), and all manner of cards that get into that graveyard super quickly. But it also comes down to what each card offers you.

Getting an opening hand of 4 Slitherheads and a Lotleth is pretty unlikely, but let's imagine a scenario where you draw a Lotleth and 2 Slitherheads. Not bad right? You play your Lotleth turn 2, then discard and scavenge and give your Lotleth +4/+4, and a 6/5 swinging turn 3 is pretty good right? But your getting that effect at the cost of 3 cards. Tarmogoyf gets his pumps from cards that you've already used for its own effect. You've gotten the full effect from your ponder and fetchland and now your reaping an additional benefit.

Let's also imagine removal. You invest these cards into Lotleth and your opponent say O-Rings it. Bummer for you. Even if you manage to remove that Ring, your Lotleth returns as a 2/1, and you have to count all those discarded creatures as a loss. Tarmgoyf gets those benefits and pumps when it comes back, or even if you play a new one.

Now that's not to say that Lotleth isn't without merit. A better use of Lotleth is combining him with reanimator effects, or using him to discard creatures like Bloodghast and Nether Spirit - creatures who are going to give you some value even after they've been discarded. And Tarmgoyf is a lot more susceptible to GY hate, whereas Lotleth is not.

TL;DR Lotleth's pretty good, still think Tarmgoyf's better

Date Posted: Thu Sep/27/12 at 11:57am

spawnmaster

Posts: 35
Joined: 22-Sep-12

enduring renual, lotleth troll, slitherheads.

Date Posted: Thu Sep/27/12 at 12:14pm

TheCaptain

Posts: 909
Joined: 13-Apr-11

I mean, you can think that Lotleth Troll is better than Tarmogoyf, but theres a reason that Tarmogoyf costs ten times more than Lotleth (and lotleth is going to get cheaper while Tarmogoyf won't). The fact is, Tarmogoyf is a legacy staple because of its ability to get really strong, really quick, without wasting other cards. Lotleth requires a lot of investment, and you can't be investing that many cards into Lotleth in any sort of competitive format.

Also, Enduring Renewal doesn't do anything for Lotleth. It only returns creatures that went to the Graveyard from the Battlefield. And even if it did manage to get you those discarded creatures back, you're still incredibly susceptible to removal whereas Tarmogoyf is better equipped to handle removal.

Date Posted: Thu Sep/27/12 at 12:18pm

spawnmaster

Posts: 35
Joined: 22-Sep-12

oops i meant the ooze and enduring renual.

Date Posted: Thu Sep/27/12 at 4:14pm

Nickosis

Posts: 154
Joined: 31-Mar-12

My issue with Goyf is it doesn't have evasion.

Date Posted: Thu Sep/27/12 at 6:35pm

TheCaptain

Posts: 909
Joined: 13-Apr-11

How does the Ooze have evasion? The point with Tarmgoyf decks is not to worry so much about evasion either - its about hitting down those giant one drops (Kird Ape, Wild Nacatl, Delver in some cases) and hitting your opponent as hard as you can early. A doom blade isn't a big deal, and thy can usually power through most ground cards people put down in the first few turns.

Date Posted: Thu Sep/27/12 at 10:36pm

Kethiju

Posts: 225
Joined: 24-Jul-12

I have fond memories of Kird Ape. How much fun is it to drop a 1/2 on turn one, and have a 2/3 on turn 2 without spending any mana? If you've never had that experience, you missed a lot of good times. Anyway, Tarmogoyf still commands a $100 price tag last time i checked. So people still like it. The point of the goyf is to beat the piss out of your opponant very quickly. Actually, all the goyfs do that.

Date Posted: Thu Sep/27/12 at 11:15pm

gericault5

Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

Evasion is easy to give and done right your boost goyf up doing it.

Captain already said what makes goyf better "strong really quick without wasting cards". You don't need to do anything to make him bigger but play, sac your seal to kill a blocker, he just went up +2/+2. Cancel a DOJ just went up 2 more. All the way to 8/9 and if he gets doom bladed when an 8/9 whats the total lost: a card and 2 mana. whats lost if the others are doombladed. 8 cards, alot of mana. alot more was invested in those two. and what if it was a turn to mist instead of the doomblade, nothing lost on my part. can't say the same for the others.

But the true strength comes in Goyf brothers. you have the first one up to 8/9 and play a second. Basically have an 8/9 for two mana.