Title: 2 Rule Questions

Date Posted: Mon Jan/03/11 at 6:28am

Ephemerance

Posts: 913
Joined: 18-Jun-09

3 players are having a freeforall
Player 1 casts fireball paying 5 for x and then passes priority
Player 2 casts twincast and then passes priority
Player 3 casts counterspell to cancel fireball and thereby fizzle twincast

Question:

Can a counterspell target anything on the stack? Or only the most recent object? Is there any rule I can cite?

My second question:

Will the twincast copy the amount of damage of the fireball? Or is x reduced to zero because x is determined by the amount of mana spent to cast the spell (and a copy wouldn't have paid anything)?

The gatherer says x is copied, but I'm wondering if there is a rule citation I can point out?

Much thanks!

Date Posted: Mon Jan/03/11 at 10:39am

Turbine

Posts: 10194
Joined: 26-Oct-09

I think that the third player could respond to the Twincast by countering the Fireball.

Date Posted: Mon Jan/03/11 at 11:38am

gericault5

Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

Question 1. Unless a card specifys a targeting restriction, such as non land or non-creature, anything that can be targeted by that card is fair game. In the case of counterspell it does not have any restrictions so anything on the stack can be targeted no matter the order. There is not a specific rule for this as it falls under targeting

Question 2- rule 706.something (sorry can't remember the specific one) states thated a copied spell maintains all the choices made for the orginal spell including the value of x. It is because of this copy spells typically have the text you may choose new target, without that text you will have to target the same thing as the orginal.

Also if gatherer says it then it is so. One of the first rules is that gatherer is final say.

[Edited by gericault5 on 3/Jan/11 at 11:40AM]

Date Posted: Tue Jan/04/11 at 10:55am

rav514

Posts: 329
Joined: 02-Dec-10

K, i tried to find an exact quote but could not. If some one can i'd appreciate it in case i'm wrong.

However, countering fireball would not fizzle the twincast. Twincast or fork create a copy of the original spell and starts a new stack for that spell. It doesn't care what happens to the original. If you notice twincast or fork do not require the spell to be on or in the stack. It just requires the spell to be cast. A spell is considered cast after it is annouced and the mana cost is paid. What ever happens to that spell after that (i.e. whether is makes it to resolution or fizzles) doesn't matter. I have a quote that sorta says that for Fork since they are almost the same spell. The write up on fork is much more thorough.

"10/4/2004: Fork will not copy changes made by modifying effects to the spell prior to the use of Fork, such as text-changing effects."

I know that's not a perfectly on point quote but i couldn't find anything better.

[Edited by rav514 on 4/Jan/11 at 11:39AM]

Date Posted: Tue Jan/04/11 at 12:30pm

gericault5

Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

Countering the fir3eball will fizzle the twincast. Targets are checked at 2 points at casting and again at resolution. If the target is not legal at resolution, which would be the case with fireball being countered, then the spell fizzles. Twincast resolves and copies the spell at is resolution not at the casting

The quote you made refers to how copy spells only copy the orignal characteristics of the orignal. So for example you cast raise the alarm which puts 2 soldiers on the field and the use artifical evolution to change soldier to ally. If your opponent then twincasts the raise he will get 2 soldier tokens and you will get 2 ally ones

Also twincast and fork only copy spells. And spells only exist on the stack. So yes the spell being copied needs to be on the stack once is resolves or is removed from the stack it is an illegal target

Date Posted: Tue Jan/04/11 at 1:54pm

rav514

Posts: 329
Joined: 02-Dec-10

I FOUND IT!!!!! I hate the Mtg rule book: The quotes from it are below.

A spell is considered "CAST" when you put it on the stack and pay for it. Whether the spell successfully resolves does not change the fact the it still was cast. I also included "how to counter a spell" which you will note says it removes it from the stack and cancels it; but it never says the spell was not CAST.
Now if you go onto fork or twincast; both those spells say "copy a spell just CAST". Neither of those two spells care if the target is on the stack or in the graveyard or removed from the game for that matter; all they care about is whether the spell was CAST; which means it was at one point put on the stack and the costs were paid for.

So i stand by my original conclusion that the TwinCast would not fizzle if the spell it targets is successfully countered.

Ps. If you wish to make a counterpoint please cut/paste from the rules or a ruling somewhere so i can see it for myself.

Here's the quote from the mtg rulebook that you can download from the wizards webste.

"701.4. Cast
701.4a To cast a spell is to take it from the zone it’s in (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. A player may cast a spell if he
or she has priority. See rule 601, “Casting Spells.”

701.4b To cast a card is to cast it as a spell.

701.5. Counter

701.5a To counter a spell or ability means to cancel it, removing it from the stack. It doesn’t resolve and none of its effects occur. A countered spell is put into its owner’s graveyard.

701.5b The player who cast a countered spell or activated a countered ability doesn’t get a “refund” of any costs that were paid.

[Edited by rav514 on 4/Jan/11 at 1:56PM]

[Edited by on 4/Jan/11 at 3:12PM]

Date Posted: Tue Jan/04/11 at 2:46pm

gericault5

Posts: 2788
Joined: 13-Oct-09

Just so we are on the same page. Exactly where on twincast or fork does it say "just cast" because all I see are the words "copy target instant or sorcery spell" nothing to do with casting. Your basing your perception on wor4ds not there or misinterperted.
You mentioned gatherer earlier when you look at the rulings on twincast you will see the 4th one states you create a copy of the spell at twincasts resolution and as you mentioned with countering th3 spell is removed from the stack. So if the spell is not on the stack at twins resolution what gets copied? There is nothing there.
Look at rules for resolving spells or abilitys it will say there the tqarget still needs to be valid at resolution

Date Posted: Tue Jan/04/11 at 3:34pm

rav514

Posts: 329
Joined: 02-Dec-10

Actually, i have to admit i was wrong. The errata nerf my arguement.

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/rv/152.jpg

thats the link to fork on magiccards.info. They took off just cast. Was shocked to see that. Dang i was on a roll too. ohh well

lol

I understand how resolution work, you were arguing that it matter whether the spell was on the stack or not, i didnt think it did because how fork works, err well used to work. They changed that and i missed it. My bad.

[Edited by rav514 on 4/Jan/11 at 3:38PM]